Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Come on in for general chat and POLITE banter between LAA members

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Donald Walker » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:02 am

Damn! I posted photos of a 2008 AIC, instead of the 2020 version I was reading here. Sorry about that. Will rectify later.
035353

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Donald Walker » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:11 pm

Image

Image

Image

Image

Finally, here is AIC 01/20, which I referred to. Sorry for the confusion caused.
035353

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Donald Walker » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:17 pm

Nick,
By you and I reading different AIC, we discovered that the Italians have omitted the requirement for an ICAO licence in the latest version. This was presumably to make allowances for the sub-ICAO EASA LAPL, but ...

I will carry copies of both versions when I visit Italy. :D
035353

Nick Allen
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Nick Allen » Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:05 am

Phew...I thought I must have really misunderstood! Thanks for posting that latest document.

dun0eag
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:36 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by dun0eag » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:31 pm

I e-mailed "[email protected]" asking if I might fly a Permit Aircraft in German airspace. They asked for a copy of the Permit to Fly and MTOW, which I provided them with.

They came back saying, "Thank you for sending your Permit to Fly. Now we can tell you that you need an entry permission for Germany.
You can find all necessary information on our webpage: https://www.lba.de/EN/Operations/EntryP ... nn=2099536"

The last line in that link says “A permission is not required for self-constructed aircraft registered in ECAC-member states.” so I got back to them saying the UK was a ECAC member so I should be able to enter without that permission. They responded saying, "This only applys to aircraft with a Permit to Fly of CoR showing „self-constructed“. Unfortunately there is no remark on your certificate showing that the aircraft is self- constructed.
To play it safe we would recommend you to apply for an entry permission. At the moment we do not take any fees for approval."

I may be wrong but it seems to me that they actually mean self constructed. Unfortunately, we did not construct our own aircraft, we bought it from the person who constructed it 5 years earlier.

So, if I want to fly in German airspace it seems I must go through the routine at https://www.lba.de/EN/Operations/EntryP ... nn=2099536".

Now I am having to think about where to get a noise certificate.....

Ian Melville
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Ian Melville » Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:44 am

Are they confusing 'self constructed' with 'home-built'?
The first implies the pilot built the aircraft, they second that it was built by an individual, rather than a manufature.
Taken literaly 'self constructed' raises issues if you share the flying?

Perhaps a point for the LAA to raise with thier German counterpart?
Ian Melville
032644

dun0eag
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:36 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by dun0eag » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:51 am

I think you are right, they may well be thinking of homebuilt as being the same as self-built whilst we understand them to be different. I have raised the matter with the LAA and will update in due course.

User avatar
Steve Slater
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:57 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Steve Slater » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:37 am

The ECAC letters of agreement are separate from EC and EASA and, as far as we are aware are still being honoured in most European counties for vintage and classic types and amateur-built aircraft on LAA Permits, which meet the requirements of EASA Annex 1. The agreements don't apply for non-Annex 1 permit aircraft, factory built after 1971 and of course, don't apply for Part-21 CofA aircraft.

We are following up on the recent reports of issues with German and Austrian authorities, and we'll report back as soon as we have their responses.

Steve
Stephen Slater
034052

onebounce
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:39 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by onebounce » Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:28 pm

Good thread... planning a trip to Germany in our RV - anybody know if PMD is valid or do I need to go and get my Class 2 ?
Andrew Miller
041374

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Donald Walker » Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:58 pm

[quote="Steve Slater"
...
We are following up on the recent reports of issues with German and Austrian authorities, and we'll report back as soon as we have their responses.

Steve
[/quote]

The LBA is still recommending that owners of UK registered homebuilts request permission to fly in German airspace, because UK CAA documents do not mention that the aircraft is homebuilt.
Has the LAA received a response from the LBA yet?
In my experience, emails sent to [email protected] receive a response within hours.
035353

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Donald Walker » Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:18 pm

Hello! Anybody there?
035353

gregorp
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by gregorp » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:41 pm

On my LAA Operating Limitations Certificate under "Constructor and Constructor's Designation of Aircraft" it has my name and the aircraft type.

That makes it quite clear that I constructed the aircraft.

This is also quite clear on the Permit to Fly.

So you could just go and if questioned show them the above docs.

Hope this helps,
Pete
Pete Gregory
039679

Post Reply