Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
Damn! I posted photos of a 2008 AIC, instead of the 2020 version I was reading here. Sorry about that. Will rectify later.
035353
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/uG7x1KT.png)
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/0DNzg78.png)
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/8Qqqfgt.png)
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/KxcWzWn.png)
Finally, here is AIC 01/20, which I referred to. Sorry for the confusion caused.
035353
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
Nick,
By you and I reading different AIC, we discovered that the Italians have omitted the requirement for an ICAO licence in the latest version. This was presumably to make allowances for the sub-ICAO EASA LAPL, but ...
I will carry copies of both versions when I visit Italy.![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
By you and I reading different AIC, we discovered that the Italians have omitted the requirement for an ICAO licence in the latest version. This was presumably to make allowances for the sub-ICAO EASA LAPL, but ...
I will carry copies of both versions when I visit Italy.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
035353
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
Phew...I thought I must have really misunderstood! Thanks for posting that latest document.
Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
I e-mailed "[email protected]" asking if I might fly a Permit Aircraft in German airspace. They asked for a copy of the Permit to Fly and MTOW, which I provided them with.
They came back saying, "Thank you for sending your Permit to Fly. Now we can tell you that you need an entry permission for Germany.
You can find all necessary information on our webpage: https://www.lba.de/EN/Operations/EntryP ... nn=2099536"
The last line in that link says “A permission is not required for self-constructed aircraft registered in ECAC-member states.” so I got back to them saying the UK was a ECAC member so I should be able to enter without that permission. They responded saying, "This only applys to aircraft with a Permit to Fly of CoR showing „self-constructed“. Unfortunately there is no remark on your certificate showing that the aircraft is self- constructed.
To play it safe we would recommend you to apply for an entry permission. At the moment we do not take any fees for approval."
I may be wrong but it seems to me that they actually mean self constructed. Unfortunately, we did not construct our own aircraft, we bought it from the person who constructed it 5 years earlier.
So, if I want to fly in German airspace it seems I must go through the routine at https://www.lba.de/EN/Operations/EntryP ... nn=2099536".
Now I am having to think about where to get a noise certificate.....
They came back saying, "Thank you for sending your Permit to Fly. Now we can tell you that you need an entry permission for Germany.
You can find all necessary information on our webpage: https://www.lba.de/EN/Operations/EntryP ... nn=2099536"
The last line in that link says “A permission is not required for self-constructed aircraft registered in ECAC-member states.” so I got back to them saying the UK was a ECAC member so I should be able to enter without that permission. They responded saying, "This only applys to aircraft with a Permit to Fly of CoR showing „self-constructed“. Unfortunately there is no remark on your certificate showing that the aircraft is self- constructed.
To play it safe we would recommend you to apply for an entry permission. At the moment we do not take any fees for approval."
I may be wrong but it seems to me that they actually mean self constructed. Unfortunately, we did not construct our own aircraft, we bought it from the person who constructed it 5 years earlier.
So, if I want to fly in German airspace it seems I must go through the routine at https://www.lba.de/EN/Operations/EntryP ... nn=2099536".
Now I am having to think about where to get a noise certificate.....
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
Are they confusing 'self constructed' with 'home-built'?
The first implies the pilot built the aircraft, they second that it was built by an individual, rather than a manufature.
Taken literaly 'self constructed' raises issues if you share the flying?
Perhaps a point for the LAA to raise with thier German counterpart?
The first implies the pilot built the aircraft, they second that it was built by an individual, rather than a manufature.
Taken literaly 'self constructed' raises issues if you share the flying?
Perhaps a point for the LAA to raise with thier German counterpart?
Ian Melville
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
I think you are right, they may well be thinking of homebuilt as being the same as self-built whilst we understand them to be different. I have raised the matter with the LAA and will update in due course.
- Steve Slater
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
The ECAC letters of agreement are separate from EC and EASA and, as far as we are aware are still being honoured in most European counties for vintage and classic types and amateur-built aircraft on LAA Permits, which meet the requirements of EASA Annex 1. The agreements don't apply for non-Annex 1 permit aircraft, factory built after 1971 and of course, don't apply for Part-21 CofA aircraft.
We are following up on the recent reports of issues with German and Austrian authorities, and we'll report back as soon as we have their responses.
Steve
We are following up on the recent reports of issues with German and Austrian authorities, and we'll report back as soon as we have their responses.
Steve
Stephen Slater
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
Good thread... planning a trip to Germany in our RV - anybody know if PMD is valid or do I need to go and get my Class 2 ?
Andrew Miller
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
[quote="Steve Slater"
...
We are following up on the recent reports of issues with German and Austrian authorities, and we'll report back as soon as we have their responses.
Steve
[/quote]
The LBA is still recommending that owners of UK registered homebuilts request permission to fly in German airspace, because UK CAA documents do not mention that the aircraft is homebuilt.
Has the LAA received a response from the LBA yet?
In my experience, emails sent to [email protected] receive a response within hours.
...
We are following up on the recent reports of issues with German and Austrian authorities, and we'll report back as soon as we have their responses.
Steve
[/quote]
The LBA is still recommending that owners of UK registered homebuilts request permission to fly in German airspace, because UK CAA documents do not mention that the aircraft is homebuilt.
Has the LAA received a response from the LBA yet?
In my experience, emails sent to [email protected] receive a response within hours.
035353
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Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft
On my LAA Operating Limitations Certificate under "Constructor and Constructor's Designation of Aircraft" it has my name and the aircraft type.
That makes it quite clear that I constructed the aircraft.
This is also quite clear on the Permit to Fly.
So you could just go and if questioned show them the above docs.
Hope this helps,
Pete
That makes it quite clear that I constructed the aircraft.
This is also quite clear on the Permit to Fly.
So you could just go and if questioned show them the above docs.
Hope this helps,
Pete
Pete Gregory
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