Please what is happening, we built up the Devon Strut by hosting many fly ins which enabled all the many local West Country and Cornish strips to host an annual event which we all enjoyed flying to, they often raised large amounts of donations to local charities great summer enjoyed by all.
Now we members have been told No More Fly In's. Why?
Ah we cannot aquire the insurance to cover the event at an affordable rate!!
So we have held fly ins for 30 years plus and in my memory NOBODY has ever been sued!!!
Ah the answer came back we may get sued and we are not able to take that risk.
My goodness me, so we are lucky enough to own and aircraft, lucky enough to launch into the air but we have no events to fly to.
What sort of club has NO events to go to because of the risk!!!
I despair and many of my pilot friends will not be joining our local Strut because there are no events to fly to.
There are many jiggery poke sort of ideas, Oh we will call it a fly out, scramble, lets meet by chance and then we cannot be sued for enjoying our hobby!!!
What is the LAA able to offer??????
Devon Strut Fly in's
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
Devon Strut Fly in's
Christopher Howell
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
The LAA has certainly NOT told Struts and Clubs that they cannot hold fly-ins, indeed many have done so over the last flying season - including Devon - and no doubt will do so next year.
The problem is simply that if the venue for the fly-in has no insurance cover, then the Strut or Club has to decide whether it wants to take on the risk if somebody gets hurt. The insurance provided (free of charge by the way) to the Struts and Clubs is not intended as a primary insurance cover for an airfield that chooses not to cover itself - and why should it be? Do you expect the LAA to insure your house because you have one of your mates who’s in the LAA come round for dinner?
Oh, and the LAA is able to offer the opportunity to own and operate an aeroplane at reasonable cost, plus use its services to work with the authorities to protect our right to do so. There's no luck involved.
The primary responsibility of the Association is to safeguard the ability to do those things for its members – not take risks insuring other people’s livelihoods when they choose not to even do that for themselves. It’s the LAA Educational Trust that’s the charity, not ther LAA.
The problem is simply that if the venue for the fly-in has no insurance cover, then the Strut or Club has to decide whether it wants to take on the risk if somebody gets hurt. The insurance provided (free of charge by the way) to the Struts and Clubs is not intended as a primary insurance cover for an airfield that chooses not to cover itself - and why should it be? Do you expect the LAA to insure your house because you have one of your mates who’s in the LAA come round for dinner?
Oh, and the LAA is able to offer the opportunity to own and operate an aeroplane at reasonable cost, plus use its services to work with the authorities to protect our right to do so. There's no luck involved.
The primary responsibility of the Association is to safeguard the ability to do those things for its members – not take risks insuring other people’s livelihoods when they choose not to even do that for themselves. It’s the LAA Educational Trust that’s the charity, not ther LAA.
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Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
Future Devon Strut Fly-Ins
The Devon Strut has, for many years, organised fly-ins at airfields and farm strips throughout Devon and Cornwall, together with a showcase regional summer rally at Dunkeswell.
All these events have been the subject of a fundamental review in relation to the insurance cover for both Strut and the various airfield owners. The larger airfields have their own public liability cover and some strip owners have cover from Haywards through the Flying Farmers’ Association, but some have none. Although there is cover for the Strut committee provided by the LAA, subject to compliance with the LAA governance rules, the committee is uncomfortable with the risks associated with potential litigation and the uncertainty that comes from the fact that any protection against litigation will only be as good as when tested in an English court of law. Hence, apart from the Dunkeswell fly-in, which is organised in co-operation with Devon & Somerset Flight Training, the Strut no longer intends to organise strip fly-ins.
Future events on the local aviation calendar that have previously been organised by members of the Strut committee, including the fly-ins at Bodmin, Lundy and Belle Vue will in future be run by the resident members and aircraft owners, operating under the insurance cover of the respective airstrips.
The Lundy fly-in will continue to be organised by Pete White in conjunction with the Lundy Island management. The Strut event at Watchford Farm for 2013 has been cancelled due to a combination of concerns about insurance and the ownership of the grass from the airfield being contracted to a neighbouring farmer and there being no certainty that the area required for the intended aircraft parking area would be cut in time for the fly-in.
The Devon Strut has, for many years, organised fly-ins at airfields and farm strips throughout Devon and Cornwall, together with a showcase regional summer rally at Dunkeswell.
All these events have been the subject of a fundamental review in relation to the insurance cover for both Strut and the various airfield owners. The larger airfields have their own public liability cover and some strip owners have cover from Haywards through the Flying Farmers’ Association, but some have none. Although there is cover for the Strut committee provided by the LAA, subject to compliance with the LAA governance rules, the committee is uncomfortable with the risks associated with potential litigation and the uncertainty that comes from the fact that any protection against litigation will only be as good as when tested in an English court of law. Hence, apart from the Dunkeswell fly-in, which is organised in co-operation with Devon & Somerset Flight Training, the Strut no longer intends to organise strip fly-ins.
Future events on the local aviation calendar that have previously been organised by members of the Strut committee, including the fly-ins at Bodmin, Lundy and Belle Vue will in future be run by the resident members and aircraft owners, operating under the insurance cover of the respective airstrips.
The Lundy fly-in will continue to be organised by Pete White in conjunction with the Lundy Island management. The Strut event at Watchford Farm for 2013 has been cancelled due to a combination of concerns about insurance and the ownership of the grass from the airfield being contracted to a neighbouring farmer and there being no certainty that the area required for the intended aircraft parking area would be cut in time for the fly-in.
Christopher Howell
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Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
As you will see from our Devon Strut newsletter of September The Strut will no longer organise fly ins at Farm Strips.
I held the position as Devon Strut Fly in organiser for many years and built up the number of grass roots farm strip events to such an extent that The Devon Strut became one of the most active Struts in the UK.
We enjoyed many years of happy events and LAA Members flew into The West Country on a regular basis.
Now as I experienced strip owners insurance for regular activities is fine but the cost of insurance covering a larger number of visitors to that strip on an event day would not be covered under the strip owners standard cover.
I worked very hard to ensure I could obtain insurance cover and that due care was in operation to assess all the potential risks to cover the strip owner on that event day.
During my total tenure organising these events there was never any smell of litigation NEVER.
Brian Hope's comments are not at all helpful suggesting that a house owner holding a party would expect the LAA to insure the risk.
That was never the suggestion on my part, my question was can the LAA offer some help and advice.
As it stands The Devon Strut will no longer hold ANY farm strip fly ins.
Considering we have aircraft to fly and now in the West Country our Strut will not hold fly ins.
Many of my friends now say why belong to a club with no summer events.
I personally feel very sad as I have always been a passionate supporter of our Devon Strut and now I see a potential loss of great summer events. Why because of a fear of litigation, strangely in over 30 years this has never happened. How bizare that we lose the basis of our summers flying because of a MAYBE that to date has never happened.
I held the position as Devon Strut Fly in organiser for many years and built up the number of grass roots farm strip events to such an extent that The Devon Strut became one of the most active Struts in the UK.
We enjoyed many years of happy events and LAA Members flew into The West Country on a regular basis.
Now as I experienced strip owners insurance for regular activities is fine but the cost of insurance covering a larger number of visitors to that strip on an event day would not be covered under the strip owners standard cover.
I worked very hard to ensure I could obtain insurance cover and that due care was in operation to assess all the potential risks to cover the strip owner on that event day.
During my total tenure organising these events there was never any smell of litigation NEVER.
Brian Hope's comments are not at all helpful suggesting that a house owner holding a party would expect the LAA to insure the risk.
That was never the suggestion on my part, my question was can the LAA offer some help and advice.
As it stands The Devon Strut will no longer hold ANY farm strip fly ins.
Considering we have aircraft to fly and now in the West Country our Strut will not hold fly ins.
Many of my friends now say why belong to a club with no summer events.
I personally feel very sad as I have always been a passionate supporter of our Devon Strut and now I see a potential loss of great summer events. Why because of a fear of litigation, strangely in over 30 years this has never happened. How bizare that we lose the basis of our summers flying because of a MAYBE that to date has never happened.
Christopher Howell
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
Chris, if indeed you were seeking help and advice then maybe you should write you posts in a less adversarial manner.
It is an unfortunate fact that we live in a far more litigious society than we did even ten years ago and any business or association that does not take that on board and ensure that its cover and procedures are adequate is opening itself up not only to potential problems, but the accusation of acting irresponsibly. Personally I believe the Association is right not to take on the responsibility of being the primary insurer of an event when a strip owner has not got his own cover. My analogy of a member having another member round for dinner was admittedly sarcastic but it isn’t far removed from the expectation that it is somehow LAA’s responsibility to insure an event on an uninsured strip. By your own admission the Strut won’t take on that liability, despite a long history of safe operation.
It is a great shame that some events have been lost as a result, point the finger to the strip owners though, not the LAA. We had a situation where a Strut was based on a strip with an uninsured clubhouse, and was expecting the LAA insurance to cover their day to day operations. Clearly it was not a situation that we could reasonably be expected to tolerate.
Look at the big picture – LAA members own and operate millions of pounds worth of aeroplanes and they rely on the LAA for the continuing airworthiness support to keep them flying. If LAA goes down we have thousands of owners with expensive garden ornaments. Would you or your aircraft owning Strut members be happy with that situation because a major accident happened at a private strip, where the owner wasn’t insured and probably wasn’t even a member, but the local Strut was holding an event there and the Association was therefore deemed to bear a major chunk of the liability? You don’t need me to tell you that all manner of people and companies get dragged into the mire by clever barristers when it all goes pear-shaped, particularly if they have some insurance, so why should LAA take that risk?
The only advice I can offer is to persuade the strip owner it is in his best interest to carry adequate insurance if your Strut wishes to hold an event there.
It is an unfortunate fact that we live in a far more litigious society than we did even ten years ago and any business or association that does not take that on board and ensure that its cover and procedures are adequate is opening itself up not only to potential problems, but the accusation of acting irresponsibly. Personally I believe the Association is right not to take on the responsibility of being the primary insurer of an event when a strip owner has not got his own cover. My analogy of a member having another member round for dinner was admittedly sarcastic but it isn’t far removed from the expectation that it is somehow LAA’s responsibility to insure an event on an uninsured strip. By your own admission the Strut won’t take on that liability, despite a long history of safe operation.
It is a great shame that some events have been lost as a result, point the finger to the strip owners though, not the LAA. We had a situation where a Strut was based on a strip with an uninsured clubhouse, and was expecting the LAA insurance to cover their day to day operations. Clearly it was not a situation that we could reasonably be expected to tolerate.
Look at the big picture – LAA members own and operate millions of pounds worth of aeroplanes and they rely on the LAA for the continuing airworthiness support to keep them flying. If LAA goes down we have thousands of owners with expensive garden ornaments. Would you or your aircraft owning Strut members be happy with that situation because a major accident happened at a private strip, where the owner wasn’t insured and probably wasn’t even a member, but the local Strut was holding an event there and the Association was therefore deemed to bear a major chunk of the liability? You don’t need me to tell you that all manner of people and companies get dragged into the mire by clever barristers when it all goes pear-shaped, particularly if they have some insurance, so why should LAA take that risk?
The only advice I can offer is to persuade the strip owner it is in his best interest to carry adequate insurance if your Strut wishes to hold an event there.
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Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
Brian Many Thanks for your feedback it was never my intention to point any thing at The LAA and my note was to ask for some general help and advice from all directions.
I own and fly an LAA permitted aircraft so I am fully aware of all the good work and support that is supplied by the LAA and appreciate that I can run my aircraft with less grief than if it was directly a CAA Type.
I do speak from long experience as a fly in organiser and I feel very sad that we have lost our way with farm strip events.
I am very active down here in the West Country and we have just built a hangar at Bolt Head and formed a small club and we now rent the airfield from the farmer.
We actively welcome visiting aircraft to visit our strip near Salcombe and by doing this we generate a lot of extra work for ourselves to improve the strip, keep the neighbours happy, cut the grass, maintain the tractor and mower, keep all the boundary fences in good order, install new gates with warning signs and we are more than happy to do all this to promote our lovely part of Devon and welcome all visitors.
And yes we even have insurance.
My main gripe is that we do not lose all our lovely strips and fly ins.
Please fly and see us at Bolt Head you will be very welcome.
I own and fly an LAA permitted aircraft so I am fully aware of all the good work and support that is supplied by the LAA and appreciate that I can run my aircraft with less grief than if it was directly a CAA Type.
I do speak from long experience as a fly in organiser and I feel very sad that we have lost our way with farm strip events.
I am very active down here in the West Country and we have just built a hangar at Bolt Head and formed a small club and we now rent the airfield from the farmer.
We actively welcome visiting aircraft to visit our strip near Salcombe and by doing this we generate a lot of extra work for ourselves to improve the strip, keep the neighbours happy, cut the grass, maintain the tractor and mower, keep all the boundary fences in good order, install new gates with warning signs and we are more than happy to do all this to promote our lovely part of Devon and welcome all visitors.
And yes we even have insurance.
My main gripe is that we do not lose all our lovely strips and fly ins.
Please fly and see us at Bolt Head you will be very welcome.
Christopher Howell
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Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
The question has been raised as to why the Devon Strut is not running many fly-ins. Part of the answer has already been provided in Brian’s response regarding insurance. I think it fair to say that we all want the same thing when it comes to quality fly-in venues and to be able to enjoy the camaraderie that comes through actively participating in Strut activities. However, it is also fair to say that conditions now are not what they were some years ago (when Chris Howell did a sterling job of organising Devon Strut fly-ins at farm strips). Society is a victim of its own litigious ways and until a balance is found we will continue to experience its effects.
The LAA provides its Member Clubs / Struts with a level of insurance cover subject to their compliance with operational criteria and restrictions but since their inception, it is no coincidence that the number of LAA Strut events across the UK appears to have declined. The LAA has announced that the club governance system, which includes the rules for running flying events, will be reviewed in 2014.
The fact is that, God forbid, should there be a serious accident at a Strut fly-in, the pilot would be first in line and then possibly the strip owner, but unless the latter is adequately insured, the Strut and, in turn, the LAA could well be charged and this would be unacceptable.
Whilst dwelling on accidents and insurance, it is true to say that, over the years, we have been spared from accidents resulting in legal claims but there have indeed been a few accidents not to mention ‘close shaves’ we have witnessed, albeit rarely. The fact that we have not had serious accidents or claims over many years is tribute to the standard of airmanship (and no doubt a little good luck) of the participants. However, this is plainly no guarantee that the litigious demon will not strike in the future.
Apart from issues of insurance, there are two factors affecting fly-ins in the South West: Compared with say, five years ago, we have completely lost a number of grass strips in Devon; they simply no longer exist or are not now available for Strut use, whilst some others have ‘restrictions’ imposed upon them by unfriendly neighbours. These strips can still be used by residents and other visitors but alas, no longer present themselves as fly-in venues.
Given the above, it is no wonder that what were traditional Devon fly-in venues have been curtailed and reflected in an apparently depleted fly-in diary. Such are the circumstance we find ourselves in and it is up to us to adapt accordingly.
Here is another fact: Notwithstanding what I have just said, the committee of the Devon Strut have instigated more flying activities in 2013 than in 2012. It is fully recognised that Strut members and Associates want events organised for them and that is exactly what has taken place and is continuing to happen through both our scheduled events and Strut Scramble programme. Hence, we were able to announce in our September newsletter that, in addition to our established local fly-ins at e.g. Bodmin, Dunkeswell and Lundy :
“In future, the Strut committee will concentrate its efforts on suggesting scrambles and more interesting and challenging fly-outs, both locally and further afield, which we hope will prove to be as successful and as popular with our members and which we will announce in the newsletter, on the Strut website and via email directly to members. “
Posted for the Devon Strut Committee
The LAA provides its Member Clubs / Struts with a level of insurance cover subject to their compliance with operational criteria and restrictions but since their inception, it is no coincidence that the number of LAA Strut events across the UK appears to have declined. The LAA has announced that the club governance system, which includes the rules for running flying events, will be reviewed in 2014.
The fact is that, God forbid, should there be a serious accident at a Strut fly-in, the pilot would be first in line and then possibly the strip owner, but unless the latter is adequately insured, the Strut and, in turn, the LAA could well be charged and this would be unacceptable.
Whilst dwelling on accidents and insurance, it is true to say that, over the years, we have been spared from accidents resulting in legal claims but there have indeed been a few accidents not to mention ‘close shaves’ we have witnessed, albeit rarely. The fact that we have not had serious accidents or claims over many years is tribute to the standard of airmanship (and no doubt a little good luck) of the participants. However, this is plainly no guarantee that the litigious demon will not strike in the future.
Apart from issues of insurance, there are two factors affecting fly-ins in the South West: Compared with say, five years ago, we have completely lost a number of grass strips in Devon; they simply no longer exist or are not now available for Strut use, whilst some others have ‘restrictions’ imposed upon them by unfriendly neighbours. These strips can still be used by residents and other visitors but alas, no longer present themselves as fly-in venues.
Given the above, it is no wonder that what were traditional Devon fly-in venues have been curtailed and reflected in an apparently depleted fly-in diary. Such are the circumstance we find ourselves in and it is up to us to adapt accordingly.
Here is another fact: Notwithstanding what I have just said, the committee of the Devon Strut have instigated more flying activities in 2013 than in 2012. It is fully recognised that Strut members and Associates want events organised for them and that is exactly what has taken place and is continuing to happen through both our scheduled events and Strut Scramble programme. Hence, we were able to announce in our September newsletter that, in addition to our established local fly-ins at e.g. Bodmin, Dunkeswell and Lundy :
“In future, the Strut committee will concentrate its efforts on suggesting scrambles and more interesting and challenging fly-outs, both locally and further afield, which we hope will prove to be as successful and as popular with our members and which we will announce in the newsletter, on the Strut website and via email directly to members. “
Posted for the Devon Strut Committee
Mike Mold (007106)
Jodel D117A G-BFEH, Watchford Farm, Devon
Jodel D117A G-BFEH, Watchford Farm, Devon
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Nigel Hitchman
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:10 pm
- Location: Hinton in the hedges
Re: Devon Strut Fly in's
I wonder what there is to stop Chris organising the Bolt Head fly-in, asking his friends in the Devon strut to help out on the day, as individuals and putting the date in the Devon strut newsletter and LAA Mag. Other strip owners could do the same. It would be their fly-in, not a strut event, but still supported with manpower needed and advertising.
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