A VW for the 21st Century

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:49 am

To return to the thread, and apologies for contributing to the drift, interesting though it was...

As Graham pointed out,

The ONLY way we in sport flying will be able to get efficient, modern engines at an affordable price is via the use of the mass production systems now in use in the automotive industry.

Almost certainly true. There are, however, already a number of conversions available based on such "efficient, modern engines" (as discussed earlier in this thread). Do we need another one? What we need are approved installations. So my suggestion is to have a competition for an installation based on such an engine, cleared to fly by Engineering, costing say no more than £50/hp (OK, that might be tight, but you get the idea): this could use an existing engine conversion or a new one.

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:15 pm

Nick,

that is a good point to make. Seeing the engine as just one component in an installation is important . A succcessful combination of engine, hardware and design encompassing the core engine, drive, ancillaries, cooling, air and fuel system etc., is necessary to achieve the safety and reliabilty required of an aircraft installation. Clearly the smallest detail can create a bad installation which can be the end of a good engine or worse!

It is obvious that an installation is never totally independant of the airframe so no magic 'one fits all solution' is possible in practice. However every successful installation adds to the fund of knowledge available to engineers and members.

It seems unlikely that there will be any 'new' engine that comes out of the woodwork to suprise us with its versatility, but it is more likely that one of the existing 'alternatives' used elsewhere might be developed to meet the standards of acceptability required over here.

What initially caught my interest in the idea of a competition was that it would, by necessity, require the definition of formal design goals and performance/engineering requirements that would form a basis for understanding what is acceptable. It would also provide an opportunity to see how some of the claimed benefits of various 'alternative' engines measure up in practice.

I'd very quickly like to add that I am no expert in this field but I would like to see those with more knowledgeable than I be persuaded to have a go and to widen the range of choices available.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:46 pm

I disagree that these conversions are already available, certainly as I would envisage them. True, there are some commercially available conversions that you can buy as a complete package but you then get back to the question of cost. You are paying somebody else to do what you can do yourself - source an engine, fabricate conversion parts, and assemble the engine. It's rather like comparing doing a Peacock VW conversion yourself to buying a Limbach. Envisage a modern engine - for example you can buy three cylinder VW units with minimal mileage for about £500 - then you buy a set of plans to make up, or have made up, or buy ready made conversion parts. That is where we have been with the aircooled VW for years but we are not yet there with a contemporary engine. The idea of the competition is to take us there. Naturally part of the competition would be for the engine to have met and successfully gone through the LAA approval process.

Ian Melville · Post by **Ian Melville** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:40 pm

Regardless of whether we think there are available engines off the shelf, or conversion kits available, would having a competition do any harm?

All we need is a prize that will get the ideas flowing. Worked for the SSDR?

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:18 pm

One perticular conversion that caught my eye several years ago in the PFA mag was to a Rover (Buick) V8 with a lightweight gearbox clagged on the front end. I think it had a dry sump system too. Now that would give the desired roar and a bit of oomph. Would sound pretty good in the kit Spitfire !

macconnacher · Post by **macconnacher** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:02 am

Has been done in Canada by Ross Fergusson.
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Rob Swain · Post by **Rob Swain** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:53 am

Nick Allen wrote:
Wasn't there a company manufacturing new blocks for VW parts but with all the sensible mods? Something akin to the Porsche engine?
Was is:
http://www.precisionalloy.com/pages/tf-1.html

I know the topic's moved on a bit from the above posting(s), but the engine cases mentioned are upgrades of the car cases but still intended for car use. What I was proposing above was a new set of cases specifically for aircraft use.

You've found one of the things that inspired my thinking though!

I understand the sentiment that we need something new to replace the VW for aircraft use but I am forced to ask why? One could argue that if the VW is past it, then surely most Lycomings and Continentals are as well, given that they have changed very, very little in the past 50 years. If anything, the VW has advanced more with the electronic ignition, aluminium/nikasil barrels, etc now available for it!

Oh yes, in my missive on what an aero VW case would need, after due consideration, I believe the engine mount most suitable for the engine would be interchangeable with the most common small Continental (A65 - O200) mount.
Think of it: Luscombes, Taylorcraft, Piper Cubs, Jodels etc that can have what are basically zero-time engine overhauls done at home for less than a grand! OK for the classics this maybe misses the point of owning a classic, but for homebuilts that specify a small Continental it would be an economic godsend.

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:18 pm

The modern VW crankcase I saw had the 2 main sides cast and then an entire nose end was bolted on in the same way that the Porsche speedsters were made.

http://www.hillmanimages.com/912/L1020091.html

Much easier to adapt to direct drive with a decent nose bearing or to fit a proper reduction gearbox to one of these?
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Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:42 pm

Rob (S), who said anything about replacing the VW? It is a sound engine and will undoubtedly remain popular for years to come, but it has effectively reached the end of its development life. 80 hp at 3400 rpm is pushing it as far as it wants to reliably go, and trying to get more by fitting a reduction drive and revving it higher will simply not work. The heads cannot get rid of the heat, and the cases will crack sooner rather than later. To get the best out of a 2180cc 80 hp VW you need a small, lightweight and preferably slippery aeroplane, they do not work on the front of Luscombes and Aeroncas, which is why you don't see them on the front of Luscombes and Aeroncas! The smaller, 1600 to 1835, 40-60 ish hp versions are great for single seaters like D9s, Turbs and FREDs and are not as stressed as the 2180s. They serve well in these installations and offer cheap, reliable power.
The point is that we are moving toward LSA types designed around the 912, and that trend will increase as fuel prices continue to rise. The VW is not an alternative engine for these aircraft, its power characteristics are wrong, just as the 4 cylinder Jabiru, which has improved some of the VW weaknesses, is also not a strong performer in them, the six being the usual Jab option. So, if you want a contemporary LSA you are stuck with the 912, Jab 6 or perhaps the UL260, but you'd better have deep pockets for any of them as they're all well over ten grand. And you'd best hope they don't go wrong, because the spares prices will make your eyes water.
The VW conversion was born out of necessity to power the early homebuilts when there were very few alternatives. Is there not a necessity now for an alternative to the high cost of buying and maintaining a modern aero engine ? If you can afford them great, they are all excellent products - just like a BMW five series in fact, but unlike the 912 et al, you can at least buy a Ford Ka that will serve you just as well as the BM if you aren't financially blessed.

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:45 am

Brian, Limbach produce a 2400cc, VW engine, with injection and liquid-cooled heads: 100 hp @ 3000rpm (there are also turbo versions with 130 and 160 hp). e.g. http://www.limflug.de/index.php?page=pr ... i&lang=eng
I'm sure these cost shed-loads of money...but perhaps these also suggest there's more VW development for homebuilders to effect.

But, point taken, that other routes might be interesting...but does then beg the question: why haven't some of the existing conversions proved more popular in the UK?

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:04 pm

http://www.evwparts.com/Merchant2/merch ... EngineCase
...and...
http://www.autocraftengines.com/product1.htm

Found it. Unbreakable crankcases. The removable front bearing area makes it easy to adapt a better front end assembly.

Still off-topic. Is it time to start a dedicated VW conv thread?

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:27 pm

Well done, Rob! And here's the Ur-source: http://www.scatvw.com/

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:50 pm

Whatever became of the Weslake engine - a 90hp two cylinder four stroke. I found details of its lauch at the Popham Microlight Trade Fair in an old "Today's Pilot" (July 2005) The price tag then was less than half that of the Rotax

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:39 pm

Nick, the big Limbach's are not based on the Type 1 VW which is used by homebuilders; they are based on the heavier Type 4, which is not as well served for parts as the Type 1. It would be iteresting to know if any Type 4 homebuilt conversions are flying in the UK. The only one I know of was built by Colin Hales for his KR2. His Type 1 wasn't powerful enough, and the Type 4 proved too heavy, which is why he eventually ended up with a 4 cyl Jabiru. He sold the Type 4 on so maybe it is currently flying.

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:12 pm

Hi Brian, Yes, realise that...but in fact the weights Limbach quote are not so very different twixt the Type 1 based 2000 engines and the meatier ones (2000 EO, single carb, single mag 74 kg vs. 76 kg for the 2400 injected 100 hp; the turbocharged, watercooled ones add another 10 kg). Perhaps the off-the-shelf Type IV parts are heftier...