Registration for the photo library

rogcal · Post by **rogcal** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:36 pm

Yes, maybe so but it has acheived that status by remaining stagnant and moribund with a handful of visitors per week.

Michael. I don't disagree with your view of the forum but some of us like it that way and if I want to let my hair down I'll visit the other forums.

Anyway, I'm an old fart and don't like change, as can be evidenced by letters I wrote to the PFA Journal back in the early eighties when it was proposed that the Rally was to have kiddie rides and other entertainment in the public areas.

Bah, humbug, etc!

Planemike · Post by **Planemike** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:47 pm

Rogcal.........

I am a signed up member of the same club!!! I just feel it is a real shame this site does not receive more use. As I mentioned in an earlier post the site used to receive more traffic and generally had a more dynamic air about this. Now there are cobwebs in too many corners!!

One has the sense that "the powers that be" like it that way.

The Photo Library which started us on this path is probably only viewed by a couple of dozen people. A lot of work has gone into it, why not let the world benefit from it?

Planemike

gasax · Post by **gasax** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:35 pm

It is obvious!

This new fangled electronic stuff is just a passing phase. And when the electricity goes off you cannot see you wonderful archive.

We have a moribund web presence because a very few influential people have managed to ensure that situation.

Changing the name of the association to 'appeal' to more people is much easier than changing those sort of attitudes.............

Andrew Leak · Post by **Andrew Leak** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:05 am

Guys. Why are you all LAA bashing? It is the choice of its membership if they want to use the site and forum, but the whole point of it is to share the experience of fun and more cost effective flying is it not? If you have a permit aircraft and just pay your membership and permit renewal it is you choice, but if you want to take part on the forum and attend meetings and fly-ins is your choice, also. Let's not forget that the www is not the b-all and end-all of everything , even if the world wants us to think that, but I, like many others have seen the heavy erosion of struts, flying clubs and organisations over the years which is a result of too much armchair debating. What we need to do is get out there and do something, not moan about how bad everything is getting, if most spent their time and energy doing positive things to resolve a problem we might actually get somewhere.

Yes, I know times are tough and people are getting sick of everything changing for changes sake, but as we have a hobby we all enjoy, why berate the organisation that is keeping us in the air? Just to give you some idea of how the www is not all that effective; I was asked to create a new club website, forum and secure members area, this I did and published it all round the club and the www. After 2 years I conducted a survey about the site and only 9 respondents actually took part out of 150 members. Now whether or not it was a 'waste of time' to create the site is up for debate, but people still turned up to fly and as I found out most only used the online calendar!

So what I'm saying is that just because the LAA site doesn't look like a swish corporate affair or the forum doesn't have people 'sat' on it all day long, doesn't mean it's a lost cause. I know what it is like to belong to associations that are run/held together by a few core members that are trying hard in-between 'real life', work and hobby and it is no joke. I would have offered my services this year, but I am just too busy right now, maybe next year?

Regards,

Andrew

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:07 pm

Thank you Andrew I think you have summed up the situation well.
My view of the forum is that it should be used for members to discuss their flying, building etc., and LAA and aviation matters generally, which is pretty well what it does. OK it is underused, but personally I'd rather that than go back to the free for all when non members could come on and rip the Association to shreds just for the perverse pleasure of doing so.
There is a big difference between an Association forum and an open, non aligned forum like Pprune, and that is that an aligned forum like ours should be constructive towards the host. That is not to say it should not be critical, if you have a gripe then say so, but some of the slagging off that went on in the past was totally unreasonable.
I suppose I am one of Planemike's 'powers that be' that in itself being a not particularly flattering moniker as I certainly have no aspirations of power. And I for one am not happy to see such low usage of the Forum, I would much rather it was bustling with enthusiastic members.

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:53 pm

The entire PFA then LAA forum content with posts by knowledgeable members has been erased on two separate occasions. That is why few come here any more.

Some people post from work or quite reasonably don't like publishing their real name to the whole world. They wish to use a psuedo name. That is another reason why people don't come here any more.

...and that is that an aligned forum like ours should be constructive towards the host.

And that attitude is another reason why people don't come here any more.

It's a forum not a fan club

Tom Sheppard · Post by **Tom Sheppard** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:26 pm

I must thank Stuart Macconnacher for his efforts last night to try to get me registered. Although it was ultimately unsuccessful, (I gave up in the end; it really isn't that important to me,) I appreciate the kindness.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:09 pm

I'm sorry Steve but I do not see where you are coming from about being constructive. Our forum was used and abused, often by non members, saying whatever they liked about the Association no matter how off the wall or untrue. That is then read by people who may be considering membership and they could well be put off by thinking the Association is as these naysayers portray. Why would anybody want to provide their own stick to somebody so they could be beaten with it?
If Ford gave you a car to use, free of charge, and you told everybody who asked what it was like that it was a pile of crap, how long would you reasonably expect it to be before they took it back? And would you honestly think they were unreasonable in taking it back?
My take is that constructive critisism is a good thing, it gives us the opportunity to put things right. Totally unfounded and destructive agendas by people who haven't even got the balls to use their own name are no good to man nor beast. I'm certainly not sorry to see that negativity removed from the forum.
And maybe if you are at work you should be working rather posting on forums.

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:00 pm

Brian Hope wrote: If Ford gave you a car to use, free of charge, and you told everybody who asked what it was like that it was a pile of crap, how long would you reasonably expect it to be before they took it back? And would you honestly think they were unreasonable in taking it back?

What ever gave you the idea this forum or the website is free of charge Brian?

Like it's late lamented predecessors it is paid for by LAA members as is OUR website. HQ or the board do not own it. The membership do. Members having paid for THEIR facility had the right to post what ever they liked as long as it was legal indeed allow who ever else they wished to join too.

The AOPA section of the Flyer forum works well. AOPA members there keep their end up without interference from their board. We could do worse than ask Flyer to host a LAA section there. People don't like typing stuff in again and we have twice shown ourselves incompetent in preserving members contributions.

If the board/CEO/engineering are doing excellent (or stupid) things there needs to be a way to take feedback from members and potential members. If unedited feedback is unwelcome then perhaps its time to rethink who is working for who. The option is always there to not read for those who don't like it.

This forum has been hobbled and castrated by over control and luddite ignorance. Let it die poor thing and seek an independent alternative. LAA can't be sued for content on an independent site and that seems to be the only thing that matters any more.

My guess is there will two or three members willing to set up and moderate it with a light even handed touch including myself.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:01 am

Of course everything belongs to the members Steve, but somebody has to oversee and manage it or we would have anarchy. You elect a board to do that and we try our best. You have the right to vote us all out and take over if you think you can do a better job. And in reality this forum is about as free as you can get, we pay for web space for the website and this is an add on that requires virtually no input or maintenance.
I have made it perfectly clear that criticism is not a problem and feedback is welcomed so please stop trying to suggest that we are trying to suppress it.
The loss of past posts is unfortunate but something of a red herring. I have not read too much about the archives being missing as a reason to depart this forum.
The being sued reference is clearly linked to the problems we face over Young Aviator flights and that has been discussed elsewhere on the board. Would you rather we did nothing but crossed our fingers and hoped that we never had an incident? Fact is that a problem with YA could bring the association down, and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you'd be the first one squealing that the board should have done something if we let that happen and all LAA aircraft were grounded by the CAA because the LAA had ceased trading. Get real and understand that sometimes you have to do crap stuff for the greater good. You had, in fact still have the opportunity to bring forward suggestions of how we could retain YA but mitigate the risk and you haven't, sometimes there just isn't a palatable solution. So, having failed yourself it would be nice if you had a little good grace for those of us that have also failed but have to implement the unfortunate decision to suspend YA. Easier and more fun to throw brickbats thought isn't it.
There has been talk in the past about setting up an alternate LAA site and I do not know why it hasn't happened. Nobody at LAA HQ is going to stop it, we couldn't and wouldn't, it would be nothing to do with us. Personally I'm not interested, I only read and post on this forum because I believe that at least one board member should be aware of what is being discussed here and try to help or explain things that are going on if at all possible. I doubt there would be any board response to an alternate LAA member site but maybe there doesn't need to be. I sometimes think I'm probably only setting myself up to get shot down on here anyway, but all the time I think that maybe at least some of the members on here want a ‘semi official’ view then I’ll carry on.

Jonathan Holland · Post by **Jonathan Holland** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:25 am

It is a collection of photographs of aircraft and it isn't easy to access. Big deal; is it really worth getting worked up about? There are heaps of other websites where one can look at UK light aircraft so I personally don't think it is a concern.

Someone mentioned about the website being poor. I wouldn't describe it that way, more "functional yet not pretty". It works and we can all find what we need so once again, I can't see the problem. If it was upgraded and hosting lots of flashy software there would then be a surge of people asking why their membership money was being spent on web design during a recession.

Quite honestly, it seems the LAA just can't win win some people.

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:23 am

Brian Hope wrote:So, having failed yourself it would be nice if you had a little good grace for those of us that have also failed but have to implement the unfortunate decision to suspend YA. Easier and more fun to throw brickbats thought isn't it.
There has been talk in the past about setting up an alternate LAA site and I do not know why it hasn't happened. Nobody at LAA HQ is going to stop it, we couldn't and wouldn't, it would be nothing to do with us.

Unfair and frankly rude Brian. This it not just about YA but about overall exposure of LAA to attack by ambulance chasers. At the Last NC meeting I repeated 3 suggestions (taken from previous NC meeting notes) of how LAA could mitigate it's liability risk.

1. Negotiate an affordable insurance liability scheme that struts can take out independently from LAA.
2. Approach CAA/DFT to seek indemnity assistance for Engineering risks.
3. Become our own underwriters (2500 aircraft) then fight every case. The ambulance chasers will soon go elsewhere when they start lose claims rather than collect money on the steps of the court before they incur costs.

NC came up with these solutions over various meetings. I recall you were sat at the end of the table when I repeated them at NC two weeks ago. Attacking me personally will not address this problem.

As to an independent LAA forum, if you recall that would need LAA approval to use the LAA name. No one ever suggested it should be set up in opposition to this forum but instead of it. It would need the same nod that AOPA gave to theirs. People would then use it. I think you know this already as again you were party to the same discussions. The problem with rogue posting on this forum has always been related to the inability to upgrade the forum software to improve security. Again if you recall we tried do so about 2 years ago and and it broke some parts of the website.

I have no idea if Ian would be willing to allow a LAA section next to the AOPA one on Flyer or what contribution to his running costs would need to be made but if you wish me to I am willing to approach him.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:05 am

I don't really want to keep this running too long Steve because I expect most readers aren't particularly interested but :

1. Negotiate an affordable insurance liability scheme that struts can take out independently from LAA.

This would not solve the underlying problem, which is LAA inviting members of the public to come and fly in an aeroplane at an LAA organised event. It isn't about who has what insurance, it is about us being liable for their safety and the Association being sued in the event of an accident. We have the insurance, but too many calls on it will mean we become uninsurable.

2. Approach CAA/DFT to seek indemnity assistance for Engineering risks.

This we did in a case some years ago involving a Kitfox accident. We went to the High Court and the judgment was that we were not indemnified as an 'agent' of the CAA.

3. Become our own underwriters (2500 aircraft) then fight every case. The ambulance chasers will soon go elsewhere when they start lose claims rather than collect money on the steps of the court before they incur costs.

We are an engineering based association, not an insurance provider. Establishing a mutual insurance company would be a massive undertaking, not impossible granted, but way beyond the skill sets of any of the current board or staff. I believe a couple of people are going to look at the possibilities but personally I do doubt it will be a goer. Prepared to wait and see what comes from the research though.

I thought your wish was for an independent forum, not an 'official' LAA forum on somebody else's website. That is something completely different. I suggest you come up with a proposal and present it to the board for consideration. Or you could present it as a motion at the AGM if you don't feel the board would be sympathetic to the idea.

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:46 am

I thought your wish was for an independent forum, not an 'official' LAA forum on somebody else's website. That is something completely different. I suggest you come up with a proposal and present it to the board for consideration. Or you could present it as a motion at the AGM if you don't feel the board would be sympathetic to the idea.

Nope I never said it should be an official site any more than the AOPA section on Flyer is. BUT LAA have to approve use of their name (check with Peter Harvey). That is the whole point of it, it is independent. AOPA have their own too but it is seldom used. The Flyer section is active, useful and posts by the knowledgeable are common.

People that remember the history of the PFA/LAA forums will understand the value of visible independence.

If you are serious Brian and willing to offer to be sponsor for such a proposal to the board I will put some work into it to produce a case and present it.

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:40 am

I for one am pleased that a Board member reads the forum and more pleased that they try their best to deal with a wide variety of postings. The BMAA site actually has a link for members only to contact their Council, but it doesn't work any better then the LAA arrangement.

Forum users it must be remembered, here & at the other place, are a small proportion compared to the bulk of the membership.

Never-the-less some contributors - they're always some - can wind themselves up into a tizzy imagining all sorts of conspiracies & calumnies and then their output becomes very personal. Perhaps Tony Blair fashion, they see & know everything much more clearly than the hoi polloi.
Folk like that rarely seem to volunteer to help, possibly because they wouldn't fit into an organised system.

Reasonable criticism, even the odd rant, is acceptable but persistent attacks on our own elected volunteers & staff achieves nothing. Certainly if it were a wide open forum a lovely technique for putting off potential newcomers.

mike hallam.