Hi I'm looking for some advice as follows....
I'd like to buy a Group A permit plane to operate from a 300m grass strip. The strip is considerably longer but part becomes unusable during winter and I'd like to fly year round. It's not the smoothest of strips either so prop-clearance is a consideration. Must be able to carry 100kg 6ft pilot plus ideally 3 1/2hrs fuel (incl reserve). I'd consider a single seater but prefer a 2 seater (to carry 85kg passenger) with same fuel. I reckon that means min useful load is about 235kg burning 20l/hr, but more useful load would be better.
Must be cheap to operate (mogas) and reasonable price (£10K - 15K max - any more would mean having to group it and that's not likely to be easy). Taildragger preferred but I'm a taildragger novice so needs to have easy handling.
Any advice or recommendations on a suitable type? Any gotcha's on the recomended type? Am I being unrealistic in my requirements?
Cheers,
Steve
Low cost strip plane - what would you recommend?
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ChampChump
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Mogas might limit you to a Rotax as the ethanol content now is so high for older Permit aircraft which would run on it if they could.
The load carrying requirement is another factor: I suggest a Rans, if you can find a tailwheel version for sale. The more ubiquitous nosewheel S6 is just as capable. They were designed by a tall American so don't lack space, either.
I can redirect Rans-owning OH here if you wish, for more tech-spec.
Edited to add, on re-reading your post, that a 300m or shorter winter runway is going to limit you a bit anyway, let alone with two inside.
The load carrying requirement is another factor: I suggest a Rans, if you can find a tailwheel version for sale. The more ubiquitous nosewheel S6 is just as capable. They were designed by a tall American so don't lack space, either.
I can redirect Rans-owning OH here if you wish, for more tech-spec.
Edited to add, on re-reading your post, that a 300m or shorter winter runway is going to limit you a bit anyway, let alone with two inside.
Nic Orchard
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David Hardaker
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Short stripper
Jodel D117 or D120 will tackle 300 metres. With 25 gallons fuel capacity you can certainly go a long way, although operating with full tanks will take the sparkle out of takeoff performance. 4.5 gph is about average cruise consumption for a C90 powered Jodel.
120's tend to have fatter tyres than 117's with original wheels, so are slightly better off soggy strips. Not having airbrakes or flaps is no problem.
AFORs lists plenty of Jodels.
A Champ would be OK, but will cost more, and is a bit slower.....
Happy stripping !
120's tend to have fatter tyres than 117's with original wheels, so are slightly better off soggy strips. Not having airbrakes or flaps is no problem.
AFORs lists plenty of Jodels.
A Champ would be OK, but will cost more, and is a bit slower.....
Happy stripping !
Steve,
I think you will have difficulty finding something suitable meeting your performance requirements for a max expenditure of 15K.
A Cub with additional wing tank and minimum of 90 HP engine will probably meet most of your requirements, but doubt you will find one for less than 15K.
Aeroplanes are always a comprmise, performance-wise!
Tony Nowak
I think you will have difficulty finding something suitable meeting your performance requirements for a max expenditure of 15K.
A Cub with additional wing tank and minimum of 90 HP engine will probably meet most of your requirements, but doubt you will find one for less than 15K.
Aeroplanes are always a comprmise, performance-wise!
Tony Nowak
I would go along with David, but would aim for the 117A or 120A which have airbrakes. 300mtrs doesn't leave much of a safety margin.300M
There is 300m and 300m.
With good clear approaches no fences hedges etc. and climb outs 300m will present few problems to a D117 or 120. I agree that an A would be the ideal although with appropriate difference training and experience either is likely to be acceptable.
My best wishes in your search take your time.
Barry
With good clear approaches no fences hedges etc. and climb outs 300m will present few problems to a D117 or 120. I agree that an A would be the ideal although with appropriate difference training and experience either is likely to be acceptable.
My best wishes in your search take your time.
Barry
014175
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Adrian Hatton
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We have recently bought an excellent D120 for well inside for your budget figure.
As Barry says above, with a clear approach and departure route, 300m is about the minimum I would accept.
Although with light fuel /passenger loading and short dry grass we are off well before 300m, it does obviously take a little longer to get going when heavy or if it is a bit wet underfoot and I fnd that landing reliably inside 300m in light winds requires pretty accurate speed control over the hedge on our (non-airbraked) D120.
A good example of the D120 is lot of aeroplane for the money in my opinion.
Good luck with your search.
Adrian
G-AZGA
As Barry says above, with a clear approach and departure route, 300m is about the minimum I would accept.
Although with light fuel /passenger loading and short dry grass we are off well before 300m, it does obviously take a little longer to get going when heavy or if it is a bit wet underfoot and I fnd that landing reliably inside 300m in light winds requires pretty accurate speed control over the hedge on our (non-airbraked) D120.
A good example of the D120 is lot of aeroplane for the money in my opinion.
Good luck with your search.
Adrian
G-AZGA
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Bill Scott
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mike newall
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David Hardaker
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Adrian Hatton
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Sounds like the concensus is a Jodel D120A, D120 or 117 are also highly rated, but marginal on 300m (approach in one direction on the winter runway is over trees).
I have to admit that I'd not seriously considered the Rans as it looks rather less robust than I'm used to but I'll look into it further. ChampChump or Bill - Any more info on real-world performance on them would be appreciated .
Champs - haven't seen many advertised over the last couple of years watching AFOR's and dreaming. A cub would be ideal, but may well be beyond my means.
Does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) on kitfoxes/avids? I understand that early Kitfoxes were weak in lateral control at low speed and may be a bit twitchy, but views for those with experience would be appreciated.
I have to admit that I'd not seriously considered the Rans as it looks rather less robust than I'm used to but I'll look into it further. ChampChump or Bill - Any more info on real-world performance on them would be appreciated .
Champs - haven't seen many advertised over the last couple of years watching AFOR's and dreaming. A cub would be ideal, but may well be beyond my means.
Does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) on kitfoxes/avids? I understand that early Kitfoxes were weak in lateral control at low speed and may be a bit twitchy, but views for those with experience would be appreciated.
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Bill Scott
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Steve,
Group A Rans is a different beast to my microlight S6-ES. The microlight has an extended span compared with the 116 wing.
For a UK source of info, I'd suggest you contact Mike Hallam, he produces a news mail several times a year for Rans owners:
mikehallam@btinternet dot com
Also,there is a Rans forum which is mostly our colonial cousins across the pond. I think a hig proportion of them are tail draggers with the 116 wing.
http://ransclan.com/forums/
If you'd like to see an S6 from a pilots perspective, there are lots of videos on you tube.
Here is an online blog/diary of a S6-ES build and there are videos
http://www.essexflyer.me.uk/
Group A Rans is a different beast to my microlight S6-ES. The microlight has an extended span compared with the 116 wing.
For a UK source of info, I'd suggest you contact Mike Hallam, he produces a news mail several times a year for Rans owners:
mikehallam@btinternet dot com
Also,there is a Rans forum which is mostly our colonial cousins across the pond. I think a hig proportion of them are tail draggers with the 116 wing.
http://ransclan.com/forums/
If you'd like to see an S6 from a pilots perspective, there are lots of videos on you tube.
Here is an online blog/diary of a S6-ES build and there are videos
http://www.essexflyer.me.uk/
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mike newall
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- Location: N Yorkshire
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Nigel Hitchman
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the problem with tall people and Jodels is the space to get your knees under the panel, rather than headroom. I can fit in a Jodel no problem (6ft0), but a friend who is less than an inch taller couldnt get in at all, due to the panel. Long legs are the problem!
I havent flown a Jodel for a few years but remember the take-off run to vary greatly with the weight, so two up with full fuel might be a problem with 300m.
I wonder if an Auster would meet your needs, at least for getting in and out.
I havent flown a Jodel for a few years but remember the take-off run to vary greatly with the weight, so two up with full fuel might be a problem with 300m.
I wonder if an Auster would meet your needs, at least for getting in and out.