CAA announce 8.33 Hand Held Radios are Legal

[Brian Hope]

Donald, the CAA no longer charges for homebuilts from ECAC countries (see ORS4 909 May 2012) nor factory builts on PtF from France or Ireland (ORS4 910 and 911 also May 2012).
Unfortunately the ECAC agreement is specific to homebuilts and does not include factory built aircraft on PtF. It does not, on its own, allow free travel either; the individual states had to amend their ANOs in line with the agreement for them to be party to it - and not all states did that. The CAA has been very helpful in working with LAA to resolve issues of cross border operation in PtF aircraft, adopting the spirit of ECAC for unhindered travel for homebuilts and agreeing reciprocal arrangements with France and Ireland for non-homebuilt PtF. It is hoped that with the French and Irish agreements in place, other states will be happy to make similar arrangements and work continues to this end. The European Federation of Light, Experimental and Vintage Aircraft (EFLEVA) is also engaged in this exercise.
Unfortunately ignorance of, or misinterpretation of the rules is rarely accepted as a valid defence so I hope you never have to test it. I think if we and the CAA can influence EASA to take a similar line on Approval of hand held radios, that would be a better tack. Other states will face a similar problem over handhelds and there are still four years to get it sorted; ultimately I believe it will be.

[Donald Walker]

Brian, I did say "With some exceptions, our own CAA charges £64 for a permit ..." and I posted a link to a CAA page that is itself linked to the exceptions. I also posted a link to ORSA 909.
It amuses me that so many pilots express their outrage at the Belgian charge for over-flight, when they are obviously unaware that the CAA charges Belgians and many other nationalities for the privilege of flying in the UK.

Don't worry about me being in ignorance of the rules; ignoring them maybe, but not in ignorance.
For 7 years I was based in Luxembourg, where every away landing meant crossing international borders. This encouraged a healthy interest in the regulations of the various countries visited, and that has not diminished.

BTW my Aircraft Radio Licence doesn't even mention the brand of the radio, let alone that has ETSO Authorisation.

[Brian Hope]

I wasn't for a moment suggesting you were ignorant of the law Donald, just that ignorance OR misinterpretation won't do anybody any good in court. I suppose to some extent the discussion over 8.33 handheld radios is really rather academic - most people who use them legally in the UK will probably continue to use them on the continent whether individual states or EASA have approved them or not; I doubt there will be very much policing of the radio regulations - unless maybe, handhelds have become a bone of contention with local pilots in a particular EU state.
All homebuilts from all EU states do not now have to pay a fee to CAA or make prior arrangements to fly in UK airspace whereas no PtF aircraft can go to Belgium for free, so it certainly isn't our CAA that is being uncooperative. Discussions are ongoing with Belgium but their aviation regulation system appears to be rather complicated and it seems they have to change the law before they can alter the way they deal with foreign PtF aircraft, and apparently that's something they do not do very regularly.

[Donald Walker]

I know you weren't making that suggestion, Brian. I was only hinting that, like many pilots based near the L, F, B and D borders, I may have made some international flights that did not fully comply with the rules.

I have to admit that I interpreted ORSA 909 to cover ECAC countries that actually signed the agreement on homebuilts in June 1980, not all ECAC countries. That is good for those flying Belgian homebuilts, but not for the far greater number flying factory built microlights. I know what you mean about the Belgian system being complicated. I am forwarding you an exchange of emails about the requirement for foreign PtF pilots to file a FPL for internal flights, with details sent by email, which I believe to be unnecessary and discriminatory. Unsurprisingly, I got nowhere.

I agree it is unlikely there will be much policing of handhelds, but if they do become a bone of contention in the EU, I would suspect ICOM France. They have added an external FM filter to their handhelds, which serves no purpose other than to distinguish them from the standard models to gain DGAC approval and increase the price considerably.
http://www.espacealtitude.com/icom-ic-a ... p-727.html Compare that to £250 for the same radio in the UK.

[mikehallam]

[u]A bit of thread drift.[/u]

Lack of freedom to fly into/via Belgium without extra permission is a stricture which has emerged since I used to happily Jodel over there last century.
The mention of the need to pay for a chitty from the above correspondence today was news to a Belgian non LAA member & 'RansMail' reader based at EBZH Kiewit.
He wrote:[b]
"I am quite curious to see what bit of regulation / what chapter of the AIP is being referred to. Perhaps they are confusing with the “overfly” duty that is theoretically charged to foreign registered microlights? But that was created with the purpose of at least getting some money from the (very numerous) Belgian operators registering their microlight in France – it is not enforced on “real” foreigners.
I am quite sure no Belgian official would try to discern a PtF plane from a certified type, and those that tried stand little chance at succeeding.
Also there are a fair number of F-Pxxx planes based in Belgium – I have one for a hangar neighbour – and never heard of any issues or special payments required."[/b]

His remarks seem at variance with the 'rules' for we UK visitors. Could anyone kindly comment on or re- explain the position for the different categories U.K. Permit to Fly a/c pilots wishing to visit Belgium, but are presently inhibited from doing so. [e.g Schaffen Diest Fly-In etc. ? ]

mike hallam.

[Donald Walker]

Mike,
All foreign aircraft which lack a CofA are required to obtain permission to fly in Belgium. Simple as that. What UK pilots object to is having to pay for the privilege.

It is all explained in this Royal Decree http://reflex.raadvst-consetat.be/refle ... 112680.pdf

[mikehallam]

Thanks Donald, Most useful in promoting replies from 'elsewhere'.

Remaining with subject drift. ---

I'd like to see if the below info. helps or hinders UK Permit pilots. Here I'm acting as go between for a Belgian guy who is regular contributor to another prominent - but open forum - which you may already be following. Perhaps LAA pundits might care to comment whether this quasi concession need mean we can once more place Belgium on the map.

mike hallam.

"The Feuervogel club takes pains to convince visitors from Germany that they need not fear the tax (which was 87 euro originally but has since followed inflation, through our famous “index” model). They stress they particularly inquired with the Brussels authorities, but they are not writing publicly that one need not be worried. It seems obvious to me that our CAA convinced them that they were not to worry, and neither should their foreign visitors – but it is somewhat understandable that the CAA would not like to see the fact publicly announced, hence Feuervogels recommendation to call them in case of doubt.

http://www.feuervogel.be/de/02_pilotinf ... buehr.html

And yes, the tax IS meant for Belgian based planes on foreign registry.

(pour la petite histoire iow fully off-topic: this German speaking territory of less than 100.000 people was annexed by Belgium after WW1, reverted to Germany in 1940 and back to Belgium in 1945. Inhabitants of proper sex and age were conscripted to the German forces, and promptly accused of collaborating with the enemy after the war. The amnesty law to correct this was only passed in 1989. Vive la Belgique! )"

[Donald Walker]

Ah, Bullingen. A great little airfield in a lovely location.You really should try to attend their annual fly-in one day. The large marquee with the oompah band, good beer and better food is a great place to spend some time with friends. The first time I flew in there I was very confused, because the signs were in German and everybody spoke German. I thought my nav must have been off and I'd crossed the border into Germany. I didn't want to ask, of course, and only breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the bar prices in Belgian francs.

And yes, the tax IS meant for Belgian based planes on foreign registry.

What he means is that it was intended to discourage Belgians registering their aircraft abroad, while basing them in Belgium. Unfortunately, the wording is unequivocal and the permit applies to foreign visitors. It is not a tax either, but an administration fee calculated at an hourly rate,that increases from time to time. My last permit cost 94 euros.

[Nigel Hitchman]

continuing the thread drift!
I had heard the same thing about this Belgian law. ie it was meant for Belgian operating foreign registered aircraft, not foreign visitors. A friend of mine used to operate a UK registered Glasair in Belgium, nothing happened to them for a few years after the law started, but then they got hunted down and told they had to pay. He no longer has the aircraft, so I cant ask exactly what is happening now.
Ive been to Schaffen fly-in many times and never been asked about any permission. I even know someone who had a forced landing nearby, had to dismantle the aircraft and move it out of the field, get the engine repaired and then re-assemble the aircraft to fly it back home. All looked at by the Belgian authorities and signed off by a LAA inspector. He didn't even know about the permission required and was never asked for it.

However, if asked the Belgian do seem to issue permission to foreign based aircraft asking to come to Belgium, so clearly different standards in different places, I guess they just cant turn down money for nothing!

[Donald Walker]

As I see, the problem is insurance. If you are in Belgian airspace without a permit, you are not legal, so you are potentially invalidating your insurance policy. Third party insurance is mandatory, so it's a double whammy.

The Belgian authorities would take a pretty dim view if, for example, the owner of the aircraft you taxied into had his claim refused on a technicality.