Cirrus272,
Firstly, you lead us to believe that the Zenair was involved only the once, then you chuck in that it was three times. The Zenair is not underpowered. His cruising speed and climb rate can outperform most of our type of aircraft, it's just his approach and landing speed that are low. I could complain that I have to wait for GA aircraft to backtrack to exit the runway on landing whilst I can land in the length of the runway marker numbers, but I make allowance for it. In addition, I have to wait for GA to hurtle down the runway for take-off whilst I can get away in about three seconds on average. No, there is a fault with the airfields instructor if he does not know the performance of various aircraft and to point this out to his students. Perhaps it was ill advised to send him away into a busy circuit without the relevant information. You said that you "HATE with a vengeance" the pilot who thinks he has right of way - well, reading you response, you are one of them with your get out of the way I'm landing attitude.
Jon want to "insist" that microlights (them) comply with his list of priorities.
To say that you both dislike microlights is the biggest understatement since Noah said "It loks like rain" !!
Mixing Microlight and class A in the circuit.
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
To bring things a little way from a particular hobby horse.
If your noise sensitive field has a four mile final then this 'feature' by itself will generate issues of speed differential. The shorter the final the less this would matter. A shorter final would also allow people to actually see what was on finals and hold off if something 'slow' was in 'the way'.
However I flew out of a microlight strip (in a Group A machine) for over 5 years and almost never had an issue - most weight shifts are not significantly slower than group A on finals. It's only the 'air transport' types who fly finals at 70 plus knots that cause any issues.
If your noise sensitive field has a four mile final then this 'feature' by itself will generate issues of speed differential. The shorter the final the less this would matter. A shorter final would also allow people to actually see what was on finals and hold off if something 'slow' was in 'the way'.
However I flew out of a microlight strip (in a Group A machine) for over 5 years and almost never had an issue - most weight shifts are not significantly slower than group A on finals. It's only the 'air transport' types who fly finals at 70 plus knots that cause any issues.
Hi Bill,Bill McCarthy wrote: Jon want to "insist" that microlights (them) comply with his list of priorities.
To say that you both dislike microlights is the biggest understatement since Noah said "It looks like rain" !!
I can assure you that I am not anti microlight, nowhere in my post did I state that I dislike microlights... quite the contrary.. It is what I fly!...and the only type I am licenced to fly (NPPL-m).. in this particular set of circumstances where an individual is attempting to get the airfield to allow microlights in, then a set of "rules" that will permit acceptance of microlights can be no bad thing, at least until it is established that microlights are safe and not a problem in the approach/pattern... Those rules can be amended/relaxed when seen fit afterwards.
My problem is that I am usually as fast or faster as some Group A types,(I fly the 100hp version of the C42) I also believe that it is more to do with airmanship than the performance of the aircraft and in a lot of cases ignorance of the capability of some microlight types.
All the best,
Jon
http://www.IrishFlyin.Com
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Bill McCarthy
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm
- Location: Caithness
Jon,
Many modern GA aircraft and microlights have an approach speed in the order of 45kts. The faster types will just have to get used to that fact. There is certainly no room for "air rage" in our sport. I regularly fly in the circuit with other microlights (at my speed) and a Glasair that has a threshhold speed in the order of 85 to 90kts and we manage the situation with absolute safely. I also fit in with commercial aircraft, North sea helicopters and a Nimrod that comes into the area to carry out practice approaches, and I have to give him a six mile wide berth to prevent getting caught up in his wake turbulence. 70kts is my VNE, and I have never had to give way as others in the circuit regognise this (even the Nimrod) and will extend downwind (whilst saying so) to maintain adequate separation.
I was particularly galled by the reference to the "frame tent" and "reading a newspaper" on final made by the other contributer.
Many modern GA aircraft and microlights have an approach speed in the order of 45kts. The faster types will just have to get used to that fact. There is certainly no room for "air rage" in our sport. I regularly fly in the circuit with other microlights (at my speed) and a Glasair that has a threshhold speed in the order of 85 to 90kts and we manage the situation with absolute safely. I also fit in with commercial aircraft, North sea helicopters and a Nimrod that comes into the area to carry out practice approaches, and I have to give him a six mile wide berth to prevent getting caught up in his wake turbulence. 70kts is my VNE, and I have never had to give way as others in the circuit regognise this (even the Nimrod) and will extend downwind (whilst saying so) to maintain adequate separation.
I was particularly galled by the reference to the "frame tent" and "reading a newspaper" on final made by the other contributer.
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Kelvin Denize
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:49 pm
- Location: London
I see the microlight vs class A fraternaty are already at each others throats and I have not even put any of you on final yet. I can't help but feel that this is going to have an unhappy end.....
Thanks to those that PM'ed me with a few contacts from local microlight schools I have had a good chat to all of them and we have agreed on a proposal which I have typed up and sent to the airfield.
Interestingly when we got out the pooleys and looked together at the approach plan currently in place for this aerodrome the microlighters I spoke to understood the problem and could see clearly the issues. I only hope that (if I get permission) all the rest will too.
In a small nut shell,
PPR will be required on the day.
All aircraft must be capable of doing at least 70MPH for 4 miles and will be allowed to slow down in the last 1/4 mile.
No circuits permitted whatsoever. Back to four mile if you mess it up.
Land long and exit if you are lucky to only need a few meters runway.
All to be radio equipped.
All to understand that forcing a go around of the following aircraft behind means another 15 minutes for them to go back around the loop to the four mile VRP. This means in practice you have 15 minutes to hide or depart before blood is spilt.
I think it will self police to a certain extent, the microlighters I have discussed this will are going to make it very clear that this should be see as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are professionals and are not in the habit of reading on finals.
Lets see if the proposal comes to something.
I might feel more warmth to microlights if they could achieve what is written in my post script.......
Thanks to those that PM'ed me with a few contacts from local microlight schools I have had a good chat to all of them and we have agreed on a proposal which I have typed up and sent to the airfield.
Interestingly when we got out the pooleys and looked together at the approach plan currently in place for this aerodrome the microlighters I spoke to understood the problem and could see clearly the issues. I only hope that (if I get permission) all the rest will too.
In a small nut shell,
PPR will be required on the day.
All aircraft must be capable of doing at least 70MPH for 4 miles and will be allowed to slow down in the last 1/4 mile.
No circuits permitted whatsoever. Back to four mile if you mess it up.
Land long and exit if you are lucky to only need a few meters runway.
All to be radio equipped.
All to understand that forcing a go around of the following aircraft behind means another 15 minutes for them to go back around the loop to the four mile VRP. This means in practice you have 15 minutes to hide or depart before blood is spilt.
I think it will self police to a certain extent, the microlighters I have discussed this will are going to make it very clear that this should be see as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are professionals and are not in the habit of reading on finals.
Lets see if the proposal comes to something.
I might feel more warmth to microlights if they could achieve what is written in my post script.......
Chair of the NW London and Herts strut with a orange PA28. Based at Elstree and loving it.
More than your new CEO - he cannot even spell it (microlites)..
On topic though - I fly flexwing wing (flying tents indeed - pillock
) and 3 axle MICROLIGHTS and have never found any problems at any airfield with landing.. loads of trouble with 16 zillion year old Spamcans sitting at the hold doing their checks when they could have done them aaages before... Heck once at Leic I had to back track to refuel twice whilst the slooow pilot faffed about.
BJ
On topic though - I fly flexwing wing (flying tents indeed - pillock
) and 3 axle MICROLIGHTS and have never found any problems at any airfield with landing.. loads of trouble with 16 zillion year old Spamcans sitting at the hold doing their checks when they could have done them aaages before... Heck once at Leic I had to back track to refuel twice whilst the slooow pilot faffed about.BJ
John Moore
BMAA Council Member
Coyote912 - but thinks Flexwings are the best.
........................................................................
My posts must not be taken as being representative of the opinion of the BMAA Council.
BMAA Council Member
Coyote912 - but thinks Flexwings are the best.
........................................................................
My posts must not be taken as being representative of the opinion of the BMAA Council.
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ivanmanley
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:10 am
- Location: Norfolk
- Contact:
Bl@@dy silly aurgument really!
The aircraft class is immaterial and it's the airmanship of the pilot that counts. The Zenair example isn't actually a bad one, as a 701 can be either a microlight or group A, and they have the same performance whichever. If you consider that my T31 has a final approach speed of 40 mph and isn't a microlight, and say a J3 Cub isn't much faster, then the speed aurgument is blown out of the water as they'd both be allowed. However, I can keep my speed up right down to the threshold if required, but rarely have too. Any microlight can do the same, and all that drag or lack of inertia can easily be bled off in the (still very short) float down the longer than required runway.
I think 70mph, is setting the speed too high though, and any excluded microlights could then point to group A types such as Cub's, VP1's ect ect are unfairly being allowed ... and they'd be right.
I think a better aurgument is simply to state that the majority of microlights now have similar performance to the average group A aeroplane, and also have to comply to greater noise restrictions than group A. Any older or slower microlights that may wish to come in will cause no more problem with a C150 following, than that same C150 would cause a Baron following it! The only restriction I can see that would make sense would be radio only. That way, any conflict could be sorted way before it becomes a problem.
Ivan
________
iolite vaporizer
The aircraft class is immaterial and it's the airmanship of the pilot that counts. The Zenair example isn't actually a bad one, as a 701 can be either a microlight or group A, and they have the same performance whichever. If you consider that my T31 has a final approach speed of 40 mph and isn't a microlight, and say a J3 Cub isn't much faster, then the speed aurgument is blown out of the water as they'd both be allowed. However, I can keep my speed up right down to the threshold if required, but rarely have too. Any microlight can do the same, and all that drag or lack of inertia can easily be bled off in the (still very short) float down the longer than required runway.
I think 70mph, is setting the speed too high though, and any excluded microlights could then point to group A types such as Cub's, VP1's ect ect are unfairly being allowed ... and they'd be right.
I think a better aurgument is simply to state that the majority of microlights now have similar performance to the average group A aeroplane, and also have to comply to greater noise restrictions than group A. Any older or slower microlights that may wish to come in will cause no more problem with a C150 following, than that same C150 would cause a Baron following it! The only restriction I can see that would make sense would be radio only. That way, any conflict could be sorted way before it becomes a problem.
Ivan
________
iolite vaporizer
Last edited by ivanmanley on Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't know how many people (if any) that have posted on this thread remember the tragic accident at the rally at Cranfield several years ago ,when the cherokee spun in killing all on board.
I distinctly remember watching it unfold as I stood mesmerised by what was clearly going to be an accident unfold in slow motion before my very eyes.It seemed like a bad dream as I stood shouting at the top of my voice whilst running to the booking in tent to get someone to alert the emergency services.
I suppose microlights were relatively rare at the rally in those days and the cherokee got too close to the weightshift in front,he tried to slow up to stay behind and having got the nose up way too high he then attempted to S turn .Having recovered from the first incipient spin that was the obvious outcome,he then spun-in off the recovery as a result of pulling up too soon.
The reason that I am posting this is to underline the fact that microlights and light aircraft can,and do operate safely together,especially nowadays when there is more experience of doing so.
BUT it relies on good airmanship especially from the pilot behind.
I fly both types so understand the problem better than most and offer the following unbiased tips.
If you are flying a slow type,always keep a good lookout on base leg,the guy steaming down an extended final in the aerobatic type may HAVE to land at 90 knots in a full blown sideslip and may not see you but he will soon catch you up if you turn in front of him!So extend your downwind,let him pass and follow him in at a safe seperation.
If you are in the faster type,keep a good lookout ,always treat the guy in front as an idiot and be prepared to go round early.
I once had to go round 5 times when landing a hairy type at a fly-in,and eventually gave up and cleared off! .I admit I was fuming but at least me and my passenger are still alive to bitch abut it.
Always be prepared to give way early if you see someone and there is even the remotest chance they havn't seen you.Treat everyone else like they are out to kill you and they probably wont!
Finally NEVER EVER try to slow up or weave just to keep your place in the que,get out ,go round and live another day.
I distinctly remember watching it unfold as I stood mesmerised by what was clearly going to be an accident unfold in slow motion before my very eyes.It seemed like a bad dream as I stood shouting at the top of my voice whilst running to the booking in tent to get someone to alert the emergency services.
I suppose microlights were relatively rare at the rally in those days and the cherokee got too close to the weightshift in front,he tried to slow up to stay behind and having got the nose up way too high he then attempted to S turn .Having recovered from the first incipient spin that was the obvious outcome,he then spun-in off the recovery as a result of pulling up too soon.
The reason that I am posting this is to underline the fact that microlights and light aircraft can,and do operate safely together,especially nowadays when there is more experience of doing so.
BUT it relies on good airmanship especially from the pilot behind.
I fly both types so understand the problem better than most and offer the following unbiased tips.
If you are flying a slow type,always keep a good lookout on base leg,the guy steaming down an extended final in the aerobatic type may HAVE to land at 90 knots in a full blown sideslip and may not see you but he will soon catch you up if you turn in front of him!So extend your downwind,let him pass and follow him in at a safe seperation.
If you are in the faster type,keep a good lookout ,always treat the guy in front as an idiot and be prepared to go round early.
I once had to go round 5 times when landing a hairy type at a fly-in,and eventually gave up and cleared off! .I admit I was fuming but at least me and my passenger are still alive to bitch abut it.
Always be prepared to give way early if you see someone and there is even the remotest chance they havn't seen you.Treat everyone else like they are out to kill you and they probably wont!
Finally NEVER EVER try to slow up or weave just to keep your place in the que,get out ,go round and live another day.
I remember the incident quite well. A good example of why trying to break the laws of aerodynamics comes at a price.
I must admit I don't particularly remember the microlight - to some extent it is pretty orrelevant as there would be any number of aircraft with a simi8lar speed on finals.
However I would restate that the longer you make finals the more likely you are to have potenital conflict due to speed differences. 4 miles gives a lot of scope (i.e. time) for that to occur.
I must admit I don't particularly remember the microlight - to some extent it is pretty orrelevant as there would be any number of aircraft with a simi8lar speed on finals.
However I would restate that the longer you make finals the more likely you are to have potenital conflict due to speed differences. 4 miles gives a lot of scope (i.e. time) for that to occur.
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Kelvin Denize
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:49 pm
- Location: London
I know I had a few people wondering what this was all about so I will wrap it up here.
I am offering us all a flyinn at Elstree aerodrome, this comming weekend the 5th July 2008. The aeroclub is going to put on a BBQ and YES!! Microlights will be allowed in.
It took a lot of arranging so I hope that the microlight pilots amongst us realise I put in a lot of work for them and do actually turn up. I will never ever fit in a microlight so I look forward to at least seeing them arrive and make themselves rounder by eating the hamburgers.
We will need PPR and I need to know the registration of the visiting aircraft, you will make yourseves popular by having a few coins for the BBQ.
If you plan to come please email me your registration details to [email protected] but you will still need to PPR on the day.
Cheers and look forward to meeting those of you that said it could not be done! You could at least buy me a beer!
I am offering us all a flyinn at Elstree aerodrome, this comming weekend the 5th July 2008. The aeroclub is going to put on a BBQ and YES!! Microlights will be allowed in.
It took a lot of arranging so I hope that the microlight pilots amongst us realise I put in a lot of work for them and do actually turn up. I will never ever fit in a microlight so I look forward to at least seeing them arrive and make themselves rounder by eating the hamburgers.
We will need PPR and I need to know the registration of the visiting aircraft, you will make yourseves popular by having a few coins for the BBQ.
If you plan to come please email me your registration details to [email protected] but you will still need to PPR on the day.
Cheers and look forward to meeting those of you that said it could not be done! You could at least buy me a beer!
Chair of the NW London and Herts strut with a orange PA28. Based at Elstree and loving it.
“In Misteks situation, possibly attempting to fly down a long-ish finals in a stiff headwind in an under-powered microlight with a queue of aircraft such as mine bearing down on him,”
I really do think this is a very outdated view of microlights. Most micros have a better power to weight ratio than spamcans, so which is underpowered? If the airfield allows Cubs, then a Cub pilot could cause just as much of a problem as a Zenair, so it is the pilot, not the class of aircraft which caused this issue. Specify a min approach speed, relax and let it happen, it will probably work fine. If it does not it will be the pilots, not the aircraft type, which cause the problem!
You may also wish to consider the takeoff performance. Most modern Micros go up very quickly and can cause the spamcaners to loose sight of them as they hugely underestimate rate of clime.
I was flying through the Southend zone a few weeks ago when an Arrow came on frequency. ATC reported that he had a micro (me) 3 miles ahead at the same level. Five min later the Arrow pilot reported negative contact with the micro, have I passed him? The response was, no he is now 4 miles in front and pulling away!
Rod1
I really do think this is a very outdated view of microlights. Most micros have a better power to weight ratio than spamcans, so which is underpowered? If the airfield allows Cubs, then a Cub pilot could cause just as much of a problem as a Zenair, so it is the pilot, not the class of aircraft which caused this issue. Specify a min approach speed, relax and let it happen, it will probably work fine. If it does not it will be the pilots, not the aircraft type, which cause the problem!
You may also wish to consider the takeoff performance. Most modern Micros go up very quickly and can cause the spamcaners to loose sight of them as they hugely underestimate rate of clime.
I was flying through the Southend zone a few weeks ago when an Arrow came on frequency. ATC reported that he had a micro (me) 3 miles ahead at the same level. Five min later the Arrow pilot reported negative contact with the micro, have I passed him? The response was, no he is now 4 miles in front and pulling away!
Rod1
021864
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Trevor Harvey
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:20 pm
- Location: Scotland
Perth EGPT has a large flexwing flying school & a large group A flying school. Both organisations may be doing circuit training at the same time & fitting in with the various Senecas, Europas etc who are based there, or visiting.
May be worth a call to ask how they manage. I do know there is not a mandatory 4 mile final. On 27 that could put you in conflict with Dundee 10 ILS. which is just over the hill.
May be worth a call to ask how they manage. I do know there is not a mandatory 4 mile final. On 27 that could put you in conflict with Dundee 10 ILS. which is just over the hill.
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Kelvin Denize
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:49 pm
- Location: London
Right, I am gathering quite a list but I still have room for more. I have slots at 10-1030, 1100-1130 and 1200-1230 as well as a great stocked BBQ.
To the microlights this is your opportunity to get this airfield open for your use in future, come on down and show us your machines. If you can prove to fit within the statement I always have at the end of my post I'll bang you up a beer.
Same for you guys in the LAA, the ground work has been done, Elstree has not had a flyinn for years and years so don't let this one be the first and last. I throw you the same challenge I put to the microlighters, can I fit in it and will it lift me, my camping gear, wife and full tanks.
If it does and I can track down one I will be joining you at some of those flyinns to fields that are on the edge of my map!!
Look forward to seeing you all,
Cheers and for more information PM me or [email protected]
To the microlights this is your opportunity to get this airfield open for your use in future, come on down and show us your machines. If you can prove to fit within the statement I always have at the end of my post I'll bang you up a beer.
Same for you guys in the LAA, the ground work has been done, Elstree has not had a flyinn for years and years so don't let this one be the first and last. I throw you the same challenge I put to the microlighters, can I fit in it and will it lift me, my camping gear, wife and full tanks.
If it does and I can track down one I will be joining you at some of those flyinns to fields that are on the edge of my map!!
Look forward to seeing you all,
Cheers and for more information PM me or [email protected]
Chair of the NW London and Herts strut with a orange PA28. Based at Elstree and loving it.