gasax
Thanks for the input. It's always good when people take the time.
I don't automatically side with AIS, however I will tell people when they have their sights locked on the wrong target or when something that is being asked for cannot be provided. If I thinks someone is wrong I will tell them so, that applies equally to AIS, CAA, and people who raise comments here or elsewhere.
The majority of issues that concern private pilots consist of Navigation Warnings and Temporary Airspace restrictions. They are issued by the Airspace Utilisation Section of the CAA's Directorate of Airspace Policy, who have responsibility for deconflicting activities. They were represented at last weeks meeting by David Grove and Shirley Wilkinson. They don't work for AIS and AIS have no control over them although they can and do offer advice.
As Managing Director af an ISO 9000 acreditted company I know a bit about Quality Assurance. QA is to do with having processes targetted at delivering goods or services to a defined standard. AIS's QA system will be designed to deliver the information provided by others to a defined standard. I'm reasonably happy that they achieve that aim most of the time. The actual content is the responsibility of the originator and is often a matter of judgement. Do you cover your @rse by issuing a NOTAM for everything and swamp the users with clutter so they can't see the important stuff? Do you keep it terse or make it more verbose so the brief is bigger? Do you rely simply on a NOTAM or do you also issue an AIC, which is designed for those activities where graphical content will aid understanding? At the moment the AIC is ICAO's method of issuing graphical information.
I had a fairly sharp exchange of words with David Grove over the use of Airways Reporting Points that do not appear on the CAA's ICAO VFR chart in NOTAM scoped for VFR. This is a long-standing gripe and I told him that I would be very happy to stand up in court and tell the Judge how many times I had brought it to his attention should the Legal Department try prosecuting an infringer.
I also have a long-standing fromal complaint against AIS that is registered in their QA system and will be seen by their assessor when he makes his six-monthly visits. That's a source of embarrasment for them and I have been asked whether they can close off the complaint now that the new site is in operation. I haven't yet given them an answer but will be going back to my original text to see if the items have been cleared. From memory I don't think they have.
The interpreting sites were not sabotaged, what happened was that they failed to adjust to the changes that had been trialled in advance and were the subject of NOTAM. All of the commercial users were aware of the changes and migrated across with few problems. The difficulties experienced with the free sites were due more to the fact that they are free. They unfortunately don't have the resources to build relationships with the data providers. The changes were of course advertised for some time on the front page of the AIS site. All responsible software authors include a statement that their software should be taken as an aid to visualisation and not as a substitute for the official sources. People following that advice would have seen the changes advertised.
UK AIS no longer provides services to any of the commercial briefing providers in the UK. That includes the airlines as well. They have all now migrated over to EAD.
I am trying to improve matters by getting a proper feed of data from EAD for the non-commercial authors but unfortunately, as indicated earlier in this thread, I am working on my own as those I have contacted are not assisting. I'd welcome contact from any of them. My intention is to try and get this as a European resource, rather than simply a one-off for the UK. Many UK PPL's also fly in Europe and EAD have indicated that they have had similar requests from other European AOPA's. I'll be approaching IAOPA Europe for input from other European AOPA's.
Notam usage please help!
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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mikehallam
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:12 pm
- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
Well I am trying in both senses to those of you who understand all formats of Air information. Under Mike Cross' castigation I tried to be a good boy, but my efforts are largely frustrated by the CAA's rigid format. Which is surely why private providers have kindly produced interpretative programmes; & why not ?
As he points out the freebie sites, well Dsc at least again today, don't have the clout to get what I still think is/should be freedom of information i.e. Notams etc.
Mike please press them harder to do it now: their lack of true safety policy is frightful.
Notamplot was considered as a possible alternative and downloaded then a Sun prog was insisted on to run it too, but eventually installed & booted up. At last I tried for Notams. It demanded I subscribe to a third party provider as if I was some airline operator. So that was a complete waste of some hours.
Aeronautical Information Service [AIS] gave unbelievably complex word descriptions of Notam'd areas, which one could not correlate to a chart without hours of redrawing all over it. Gave that up PDQ !
Had a look at the AIC's subsection & they do give area drawings. BUT ARE THEY O.K. TO USE ON THEIR OWN; otherwise why have Notams ????
Unfortunately to choose a 'base' airfield it's compulsory to use one miles away from the real Jackrell's Farm, which though on the CAA Charts since last Century, apparently doesn't count. Dsc used to deal with all those things painlessly !
So we're almost back to square one, either put up with patchy locations or buy into a commercial disseminator.
The current active moves by ATSOCAS to make things safer [viz Pink AIC 55/2008] could be a reasonable argument to ask NATS to free up access to the required Notam data for the 'private' site providers too.
Surely with a simple implementation of the 'Freedom of Information Act' a load more of us would look for a comprehensive apposite brief before zooming off on a jolly.
Mike Hallam.
p.s. ATSOCAS say they've collected all the info to deliberate on.
Pity they didn't ask me why in any area all frequencies are not monitored to ensure a service exists to alert a flyer a) talking to, say, Farnborough, of flyer b) on another enroute or destination frequ. or even SafetyCom.
That could stop one thinking by radio contact on one local frequ. you are safe. I'm thinking of the air to air fatality last year in hazy visibility between two a/c operating on different frequencies.
Of course non-radio is best of all as one keeps a good look out
[color=brown][/color]
As he points out the freebie sites, well Dsc at least again today, don't have the clout to get what I still think is/should be freedom of information i.e. Notams etc.
Mike please press them harder to do it now: their lack of true safety policy is frightful.
Notamplot was considered as a possible alternative and downloaded then a Sun prog was insisted on to run it too, but eventually installed & booted up. At last I tried for Notams. It demanded I subscribe to a third party provider as if I was some airline operator. So that was a complete waste of some hours.
Aeronautical Information Service [AIS] gave unbelievably complex word descriptions of Notam'd areas, which one could not correlate to a chart without hours of redrawing all over it. Gave that up PDQ !
Had a look at the AIC's subsection & they do give area drawings. BUT ARE THEY O.K. TO USE ON THEIR OWN; otherwise why have Notams ????
Unfortunately to choose a 'base' airfield it's compulsory to use one miles away from the real Jackrell's Farm, which though on the CAA Charts since last Century, apparently doesn't count. Dsc used to deal with all those things painlessly !
So we're almost back to square one, either put up with patchy locations or buy into a commercial disseminator.
The current active moves by ATSOCAS to make things safer [viz Pink AIC 55/2008] could be a reasonable argument to ask NATS to free up access to the required Notam data for the 'private' site providers too.
Surely with a simple implementation of the 'Freedom of Information Act' a load more of us would look for a comprehensive apposite brief before zooming off on a jolly.
Mike Hallam.
p.s. ATSOCAS say they've collected all the info to deliberate on.
Pity they didn't ask me why in any area all frequencies are not monitored to ensure a service exists to alert a flyer a) talking to, say, Farnborough, of flyer b) on another enroute or destination frequ. or even SafetyCom.
That could stop one thinking by radio contact on one local frequ. you are safe. I'm thinking of the air to air fatality last year in hazy visibility between two a/c operating on different frequencies.
Of course non-radio is best of all as one keeps a good look out
[color=brown][/color]-
Mike Cross
- Site Admin
- Posts: 228
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:24 am
Hi Mike
A couple of suggestions:-
1. Local bimbling
Use the Point Brief on the AIS site. In the Briefing ID box type JACKRELLS
See a little Magenta button with an R in it next to the box? Next time you do this just click that button and choose JACKRELLS off the list. This avoids you having to re-enter the data (note you can't use spaces in the ID).
In the ORIGIN box type 5102N00020W
The default gives you a 25nm radius from your strip, increase it if going further.
Default validity period is 12 hours. If that doesn't cover it then adjust as required.
Default Flight Rules are IFR/VFR. Assuming you're VFR change it to VFR. This will reduce the amount of output.
If you intend to visit any licensed a/d fill their ICAO indicators in. (Only licensed a/d can issue a/d NOTAM)
Click Submit!
I've just done it and got 9 NOTAM on 2 pages.
Anytime you want you can re-use the brief by hitting the R button by the Briefing ID.
2. A longer flight
Use the Narrow Route Brief
You'll need licensed a/d for your departure and arrival a/d. All you need do is construct a route that will encompass the route you are actually flying. For example if you were heading North you could use EGKA as your departure, going East use EGTO, going West use EGKH and if going South use EGKK. The default Route Width is 10nm (5nm either side of track) so the above should give you a route corridor that includes Jackrell's Farm. If your destination is unlicensed choose a licensed a/d that is beyond your destination and fill that in as the arrival airfield.
Example:- Jackrells Farm to Durleighmarsh Farm could be covered by EGKK to EGHI
What this NRB does is create a rectangular box between Gatwick and Southampton, you can adjust the width of the box from the 10nm default to make sure it's big enough. Every NOTAM has a geographic centre and a radius of influence, which would give you a circle if plotted on the map. If that circle cuts the boundary of the box you've created, you'll get the NOTAM in your brief.
Hope this helps
I appreciate that people do prefer a graphical presentation. All of the data that was available previously is still available from the AIS site although the format of its presentation has changed. Software authors needed to adjust to the new presentation.
I'm working on getting the data in a simpler data exchange format rather than one that is formatted for display on a screen. This will make things easier for the software authors in future.
A couple of suggestions:-
1. Local bimbling
Use the Point Brief on the AIS site. In the Briefing ID box type JACKRELLS
See a little Magenta button with an R in it next to the box? Next time you do this just click that button and choose JACKRELLS off the list. This avoids you having to re-enter the data (note you can't use spaces in the ID).
In the ORIGIN box type 5102N00020W
The default gives you a 25nm radius from your strip, increase it if going further.
Default validity period is 12 hours. If that doesn't cover it then adjust as required.
Default Flight Rules are IFR/VFR. Assuming you're VFR change it to VFR. This will reduce the amount of output.
If you intend to visit any licensed a/d fill their ICAO indicators in. (Only licensed a/d can issue a/d NOTAM)
Click Submit!
I've just done it and got 9 NOTAM on 2 pages.
Anytime you want you can re-use the brief by hitting the R button by the Briefing ID.
2. A longer flight
Use the Narrow Route Brief
You'll need licensed a/d for your departure and arrival a/d. All you need do is construct a route that will encompass the route you are actually flying. For example if you were heading North you could use EGKA as your departure, going East use EGTO, going West use EGKH and if going South use EGKK. The default Route Width is 10nm (5nm either side of track) so the above should give you a route corridor that includes Jackrell's Farm. If your destination is unlicensed choose a licensed a/d that is beyond your destination and fill that in as the arrival airfield.
Example:- Jackrells Farm to Durleighmarsh Farm could be covered by EGKK to EGHI
What this NRB does is create a rectangular box between Gatwick and Southampton, you can adjust the width of the box from the 10nm default to make sure it's big enough. Every NOTAM has a geographic centre and a radius of influence, which would give you a circle if plotted on the map. If that circle cuts the boundary of the box you've created, you'll get the NOTAM in your brief.
Hope this helps
I appreciate that people do prefer a graphical presentation. All of the data that was available previously is still available from the AIS site although the format of its presentation has changed. Software authors needed to adjust to the new presentation.
I'm working on getting the data in a simpler data exchange format rather than one that is formatted for display on a screen. This will make things easier for the software authors in future.
030881
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mikehallam
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:12 pm
- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
Thanks & have given it a good try to justify your efforts to explain.
Well it took a while of circling around the NATS site
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html
before the inputted Jackrells data would come up again in the search page. Actually once set up and then approaching from one entry point only then cutting & pasting the co-ordinates from the bottom of the boxes up to the selected field box one did get what you say. Quite a threading through and a precise sequence to get it to function. I agree once there 'bingo'.
The narrow route thing is as poor as it ever was because one has to ensure the few ICAO indicator 'dromes do embrace one's route. Which means swathes of area double the extra width are needed and cumbersome excess info swamps the key items. However better than nothing considering it's not intended for me when in free airspace.
One day I hope the kindly freebie site creators though shat on will gather strength to try once again and generously [like Linux do ?] allow their philanthropic efforts to be used by the World.
I think I'll fall back on calling the 0500 # as the real answer, plus keeping some AIC sheets handy for the airshows depiction of areas etc.
Well it took a while of circling around the NATS site
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html
before the inputted Jackrells data would come up again in the search page. Actually once set up and then approaching from one entry point only then cutting & pasting the co-ordinates from the bottom of the boxes up to the selected field box one did get what you say. Quite a threading through and a precise sequence to get it to function. I agree once there 'bingo'.
The narrow route thing is as poor as it ever was because one has to ensure the few ICAO indicator 'dromes do embrace one's route. Which means swathes of area double the extra width are needed and cumbersome excess info swamps the key items. However better than nothing considering it's not intended for me when in free airspace.
One day I hope the kindly freebie site creators though shat on will gather strength to try once again and generously [like Linux do ?] allow their philanthropic efforts to be used by the World.
I think I'll fall back on calling the 0500 # as the real answer, plus keeping some AIC sheets handy for the airshows depiction of areas etc.
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Mike Cross
- Site Admin
- Posts: 228
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:24 am
Hi Mike
Glad you got it going in the end. One thing perhaps I didn't make clear.
Having created and used a brief with the ID of JACKRELLS then here is the process to re-use it:-
Go to the Point Brief page
Hit the Magenta R button by the Briefing ID box
Click the circle on the left hand end of the line that says JACKRELLS on the screen that appears, you'll get a black dot in the circle to indicate it has been selected.
Click "USE" at the bottom
It will create a new brief for you based on the JACKRELLS brief, i.e. all the options will be filled in for you, including your strip location. The only things different will be the Briefing ID (it will default to date & time in the format YYMMDDHHMM, e.g. 0807221155) and the validity which will be 12 hours from the time you open the screen.
If you amend anything and want to save it as the new JACKRELLS brief or under a new name then just change the Briefing ID to what you want. Once you click submit it will automatically be saved.
On the old site I used to use one called sndwnkmble which was a NRB from Sandown to Kemble with a route width of 40nm giving me a nice big box over Popham.
Glad you got it going in the end. One thing perhaps I didn't make clear.
Having created and used a brief with the ID of JACKRELLS then here is the process to re-use it:-
Go to the Point Brief page
Hit the Magenta R button by the Briefing ID box
Click the circle on the left hand end of the line that says JACKRELLS on the screen that appears, you'll get a black dot in the circle to indicate it has been selected.
Click "USE" at the bottom
It will create a new brief for you based on the JACKRELLS brief, i.e. all the options will be filled in for you, including your strip location. The only things different will be the Briefing ID (it will default to date & time in the format YYMMDDHHMM, e.g. 0807221155) and the validity which will be 12 hours from the time you open the screen.
If you amend anything and want to save it as the new JACKRELLS brief or under a new name then just change the Briefing ID to what you want. Once you click submit it will automatically be saved.
On the old site I used to use one called sndwnkmble which was a NRB from Sandown to Kemble with a route width of 40nm giving me a nice big box over Popham.
030881
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Mike Cross
- Site Admin
- Posts: 228
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:24 am
I've just had a long chat with Rod and would like to clarify a few points.
Rod and I both agree on the way forward:-
1. We both would like to see more and better online help on the AIS site.
2. We would both like to see the use of third party software facilitated by the provision of a "proper" feed of raw NOTAM data.
3. We would both like more effort to be put into education, so that pilots have a better understanding of the International NOTAM system and how it works.
I appreciate that there has been some friction between LAA members and AOPA members in the past few weeks. This has caused some raw nerves. It's a natural reaction to be defensive in the face of criticism and I apologise if I've appeared aggressive in some of my responses.
Please keep the feedback coming in, Rod and I both need it if we are to make progress. We will continue to offer advice if you have issues or problems with NOTAM.
Rod and I both agree on the way forward:-
1. We both would like to see more and better online help on the AIS site.
2. We would both like to see the use of third party software facilitated by the provision of a "proper" feed of raw NOTAM data.
3. We would both like more effort to be put into education, so that pilots have a better understanding of the International NOTAM system and how it works.
I appreciate that there has been some friction between LAA members and AOPA members in the past few weeks. This has caused some raw nerves. It's a natural reaction to be defensive in the face of criticism and I apologise if I've appeared aggressive in some of my responses.
Please keep the feedback coming in, Rod and I both need it if we are to make progress. We will continue to offer advice if you have issues or problems with NOTAM.
030881