Notam meeting on the 17TH JULY

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mikehallam
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Post by mikehallam » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:37 pm

Thanks Rod for the all the preparatory works in pressing for a just answer & for chatting up David Adams & his Dsc site. :lol:

Went straight to it and immediately plotted Jackrell's Farm to Headcorn to observe Notams for tomorrow.

http://fly.dsc.net/u/Search

Soooooo much easier and a good example of what can be done.

Perhaps the LAA mag [as well as this site] should do a bit of promotion for Dsc as a user-friendly source of safety to increase user awareness. (With the usual caveats to save the AIS folk from feeling sour). It's a pity a high number of LAA members fail to get computer literate when so much more data is there just for the asking. :?:


It's well worth switching the computer on & you can get the Met at the same time.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/ ... ather.html

Mike.

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Post by Dave Hall » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:02 am

That met site doesn't give any info on cloudbase though, does it Mike?

I find xcweather.co.uk can be helpful for that - shows the latest metar for many airfields around the country, and it has animated data to show the trend for viz etc.

The TAFs from the met office aren't hard to get - I keep a notepad file with a range of airfield ICAO codes to cover my usual flying areas, which is easily pasted into the TAF/METAR search.
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Post by Penguin » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:24 pm

Mike Cross wrote:Penguin & Pete

You are missing the point entirely I'm afraid. ...
Mike,

Apologies for late response, and with respect, I don't think I missed the point. I was not suggesting a useful system instead of the current ICAO compliant system, but as well as. Its easy to say the current data format is not suitable for plotting - if that is the case how come people did it until very recently. I believe the services you quoted all used the same feature that was disabled recently - or is it now re-enabled?

Once again, please don't hide behind the ICAO requirement. If we have a NOTAMed airspace violation problem - and it seems that we do - then I would suggest it is a cost effective use of CAA funds to make the NOTAMs more understandable to the average GA pilot (who seems to be the most likely to violate a NOTAMed area). There seems to be budget for lots of paper through our letter boxes and other initiatives, why not divert some of the money to help us understand where the NOTAMs are?

I guess my basic point is to ask why you are trying to defend a system that does not help the average GA/LAA pilot from bumping into NOTAMed airspace? I think the 0500 number is excellent, but when 'official' publications start to mention civil suits for costs incurred for nav errors (due to not reading NOTAMs) and still make it difficult to interpret the basic information, I think there is something wrong. I find if difficult to differentiate between NATS & CAA in most cases, as in I'm unsure who does what, but I suspect that if NATS does all the NOTAM stuff then it is only because they have a contract from the CAA to do it. Has anyone taken the time to find out how many light aircraft pilots regularly read NOTAMs and what they all think would make reading NOTAMs easier?

Pete

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Post by Rod1 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:27 am

Penguin

“I believe the services you quoted all used the same feature that was disabled recently - or is it now re-enabled?”

Not all, but most if not all are back up now. Dsc used a different method to get the data, which was also broken, but he has worked very hard to get it up again. :D

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Post by Mike Cross » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:58 pm

Penguin

The point I was trying to get across was that what you were asking for would require funding because it would be additional to and not a subtitute for what the money is currently spent on.

Re the suitablity for plotting. The only reliable plot that can ge given is a circle. The software writers know that full well. Plotting the actual shape is something they make a very good stab at but it can't be done reliably.

Try these examples, both based on real life

First one

xyz will take place in an area bounded by aN bW, cN dW, eN fW, and gN hW

No problem, plot the points and join them up.

Second one

xyz will take place within a 15nm radius of one of the following sites. The actual site to be used will be chosen on the day. aN bW, cN dW, eN fW, and gN hW

How does a computer work that out? The correct plot is either 4 circles 15nm radius centred on each of the points or a rounded polygon whose straight portions are tangents of the circles and whose corners are arcs of the circumferences. Simply join the dots and the polygon will be 15 nm inside of where it should be all the way round.

Those are just a couple of simple examples. The difficulty is that the E Line of the NOTAM, which is where this info is to be found is entirely free form so the way it is written is entirely up to the author. If he wants to put "extending over the sea for a distance of 15nm from the coast between Start Point and Berry Head" he can. Easy for a human being to visualise but tricky for a computer to interpret.

Re sites being down I suspect that the real reason why the third party sites/software failed was more to do with the way they get their data than anything else. The problem is that the data they obtain is formatted for display on a screen. If you use Internet Explorer and are looking at a screen of NOTAM you will see something like this:-
Q) EGTT/QNBAS/IV/BO/AE/000/999/5150N00119W025
FROM: 08/07/26 13:00 TO: 08/07/28 17:00 EST
E) OXFORD NDB 'OX' 367.5KHZ U/S
However if you try viewing the source of what's being displayed by clicking "View" at the top of the scren and then "Source" you'll find it looks like this
</tr>
<tr class="even">
<td width="90%" class="middle">
<div>Q) EGTT/QNBAS/IV/BO/AE/000/999/5150N00119W025</div>
<div>FROM: 08/07/26 13:00 TO: 08/07/28 17:00 EST</div>
<pre>E) OXFORD NDB 'OX' 367.5KHZ U/S</pre>
</td>
<td width="10%" class="right">L2685/08</td>
</tr>
All that stuff enclosed <like this> is formatting commands to make it look good on the page but the software writer has to strip it all out to get at the data. What's left is what appears on the screen but it also contains a load of stuff that's not part of the NOTAMs, like the headers and footers so that has to be stripped out as well. (in the example above the brief was a screen and a half but the source data covered 7 screens). Change things by producing a new look and feel to the pages and it's back to the drawing board for the authors and a delay before they have it all working again.

I've long been campaigning for a reliable feed of raw data to be made available for use by the software authors so they don't have to go through this process and that's ongoing. Getting there is dependent on winning people round and changing their views which is not something that can be done overnight. Given what's happened recently I also think it will probably be a good idea if the software authors are registered with EAD so they can be notified of changes in advance.
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Post by Pete » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:30 am

It strikes me that you guys may be talking to the wrong folks.

NATS are a commercial supplier of services - a monopoly supplier. They presumably have some form of contract with the CAA.

The CAA have a big issue with folks busting airspace, we therefore have to get the CAA to pressure NATS to make data available in a form that will reduce airspace busts.

The CAA make the ANO freely available so that we have no excuse for breaking the rules, they should make airspace and safety information freely available for exactly the same reasons
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Mike Cross
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Post by Mike Cross » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:12 am

Absolutely right Pete. We are talking to the CAA. Steve Hill, who is the CAA Regulator for AIS always attend the meetings and was at the last one.

CAA pays NATS to make the data freely available, which it does via the AIS site, along with the AIP, AIP Supp, etc etc.

What I'm wanting is for CAA to fund (if necessary) the additional data feed. Before we can do this we need to draw up a spec for what is required, make the safety case, and come up with a plan for how it would work. I did ask two of the more interested software authors for help in drawing this up but it was not forthcoming. I only have a limited amount of time at my disposal but will be trying to take this forward through IAOPA Europe as I understand several other national AOPA's have also made representations to Eurocontrol. Before I do that I have to write a detailed proposal explaining what I want and how it should be delivered. That will take me some time with my current workload.
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Post by Rod1 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:15 am

I have been able to offer LAA assistance in preparing a “case” but I am still trying to pin down what the requirements are. I have still had no response to my email but will chase it up today.

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Pete
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Post by Pete » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:18 pm

Mike,

ref your post showing the text and the HTML.

I make the assumption that the fella at NATS does not enter all this stuff by hand every day - he presumably has some little bit of code that takes the data from source, and wraps it in HTML.

If that is the case, then it's a straight forward task to modify the script to generate something that is easier for 3rd parties to read
</tr>
<tr class="even">
<td width="90%" class="middle">
<div>Q) EGTT/QNBAS/IV/BO/AE/000/999/5150N00119W025</div>
<div>FROM: 08/07/26 13:00 TO: 08/07/28 17:00 EST</div>
<pre>E) OXFORD NDB 'OX' 367.5KHZ U/S</pre>
</td>
<td width="10%" class="right">L2685/08</td>
</tr>
simply becomes

</tr>
<tr class="even">
<td width="90%" class="middle">

<div class="q-info">Q) EGTT/QNBAS/IV/BO/AE/000/999/5150N00119W025</div>

<div class="frominfo">FROM: 08/07/26 13:00 TO: 08/07/28 17:00 EST</div>

<div class="e-info"><pre>E) OXFORD NDB 'OX' 367.5KHZ U/S</pre></div>

</td>
<td width="10%" class="right">L2685/08</td>
</tr>
Then without any further change, we have something that is much easier for 3rd parties to read.

If NATS can be pushed to provide an additional web page for a Notams source, then their web developers should be able to format the data in the way specified in the draft Xnotam format. This page could be provided with all the usual caveats about "not for nav purposes", but would allow developers to beta test ideas and feed back suggestions.
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Rod1
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Post by Rod1 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:01 pm

My contact is apparently on holiday.

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Post by mikehallam » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:07 pm

Could one of you erudite guys reconsider commenting on my earlier query. i.e

What connection to Notams the AIC sheets have ?
These do depict pictorially on my screen. [Especially for example their 'mauve' issues of displays etc].

I mean what beyond them is there we should know beyond what the 0500... phone message carries ??
AND thus do Notams overlap the AIC's ?

I think we should be told !

BTW Just saw that PPL now = NPPL medical for UK flight in SSEA's. Hurrah for the CAA, but what'll it mean once the EASA licence wallahs get their gimlet into us !

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Mike Cross
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Post by Mike Cross » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:07 am

Hi Mike

A NOTAM is
A notice containing information concerning the establishment, condition or change in any aeronautical facility, service, procedure or hazard, the timely knowledge of which is essential to personnel concerned with flight operations
Broadly speaking if what's in the AIP is wrong (e.g. an a/d entry says they have fuel when they don't or a navaid listed in the AIP is u/s) then a NOTAM is issued. It is however for the owner of the facility to request the NOTAM.

RA(T) get notammed because they create airspace restrictions that don't exist in the AIP. If it's complicated then the Airspace Utilisation Section of the Directorate of Airspace Policy atthe CAA may decide to make life easier by issuing an AIC, which will be referred to in the NOTAM. So if you see a NOTAM that says "AIC xxx refers" then you will probably find it worthwhile to read the AIC. This is often used for complex airspace restrictions because they can stick charts and graphics in an AIC which can't be done in a NOTAM.

AIC's are also used for lots of other stuff so the only connection between NOTAM and AIC is that a NOTAM may be more fully explained in an AIC.

If you use the 0500 number you will get all of the mandatory "keep out" stuff, like RA(T) and temporary class A (this is extremely hush-hush if we call it that rather than "Royal Flights" the enemy will never catch on :wink: "

You won't get non-mandatory stuff like nav-aids being out of service or a/d that don't have fuel etc etc.

Hope that helps
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Mike Cross
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Post by Mike Cross » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:20 am

I've had a long-standing complaint about the use of airways waypoints in NOTAM scoped for VFR. It doesn't help visualisation if you use a point that does not appear on the CAA VFR chart. Typically these are used to define low-level temporary class A to protect flights arriving/departing at a/d that are not connected to the airways network.

Following now received from AUS (Airspace Utilisation Section of the CAA) who are responsible for originating such NOTAM.
Mike,

Further to our discussions at the last AIS Consultation Meeting. We have now arranged (Through DAP AC&D staffs) for the following, frequently used, CAS(T) Awy beacons/way-points to be included on the CAA VFR Charts (hopefully on the next edition due in Mar 09):

Malby
Mosun
Retsi
Niton
CPT

I trust this will help your GA members with their flight planning and their avoidance of CAS (T) originating from Farnborough & RAF Lyneham.

Regards,

David Grove

Airspace Specialist 2
Airspace Utilisation Section (AUS)
Directorate of Airspace Policy (DAP)
CAA
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Mike Cross
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Post by Mike Cross » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:19 am

Evening Harry

We must have a chat sometime. I did not try to get them to allow airfields as waypoints so your "thanks for trying" are misplaced.

I personally have a couple of issues regarding airfields as waypoints:-

1. I think using an airfield as a waypoint is not generally a good idea in the UK. ATZ's go to 2000 ft agl and a lot of the time getting clear headroom above the ATZ is problematic due to cloudbase and/or overlying CAS. Traditionally route waypoints are navaids or airways waypoints, which have no such restrictions, however I'll grant you there are some such as the Goodwood and Southampton VOR's that are on aerodromes and therefore of less use to the low-level VMC pilot, which most of us in our LAA Permit machines are.

2. There is an internationally agreed standard for a Flight Plan Route, which does not permit the use of 4 letter a/d identifiers. The AIS site follows that syntax. Personally I'm happier having a single standard for the route rather than having one system that uses one syntax and another that is different so you end up with a route that works in a PIB but not in a FPL. If you really are desperate to use an a/d you can of course put in the lat/long of the ARP which is readily available from the AIP or any Flight Guide.

I'm happy to listen to counter-arguments.
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