reminded by the topic of going foreign, I was told that a tour by Belgian Microlights to the UK this summer was cancelled due to the cost that the CAA was going to charge them for approval of their documentation to give them permission.
As the Belgian try to charge us for going to Belgium I guess that although disappointing this isnt too bad, maybe we can get a bilateral agreement to scrap charges!
However, it was suggested that all foreign "permit" aircraft are being charged for "permission" to operate in the UK now. Is this correct? At the time we had the problems with France in 2001, when this was sorted out, I understood that the CAA had a requirement to be told that the aircraft was coming, but that they didnt need to issue any permission and there was no charge.
I guess part of the problem is the different names that different countries give to their way of allowing homebuilt and ultralight aircraft to fly. In some countries its call a C of A, even though experimental C of A, which must make things much easier- the aircraft has a "C of A", so no probs with the bureaucrats! But while permit to fly means one thing to us, it means something totally different to other people who think of it as a permission for a one off flight of some aircraft that cant meet normal rules- like a ferry flight of an unairworthy aircraft for maintenance or a one off flight to a museum etc.
If people really are being charged to bring thier homebuilt or microlight into the UK (even Belgians) then this is a bad thing and ought to be looked at as part of LAA's negotiations with the CAA and foreign authorities involved in EASA.
The objective should be that all recreational aircraft "permits" "C of As" etc should be recognised in all other countries at least for visits at present and eventually for permanent residence- I know there are current problems for the CAA of people having tried to permanently operate foreign registered microlights or autogyros here in the UK that dont comply with UK rules.
Foreign Permit aircraft visiting the UK
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
-
Nigel Hitchman
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:10 pm
- Location: Hinton in the hedges
-
John Brady
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:39 pm
Hello Nigel,
here is the text of part of an email I sent to the CAA on 17 August. We are working with our Irish colleagues who are also pressing. We expect to discuss the way ahead on this soon and I will report in the magazine. The email also dealt with relief from certain aspects of IFR and the retention of IFR and night privileges for orphan aircraft recently transferred to permits. Hope this helps
John Brady
extract:
4. Foreign Permit-to-fly aircraft entering the UK and Airworthiness Notice 53.
AN53 provides for the treatment of foreign homebuilt aircraft visiting the UK. The ECAC recommendation of June 1980, which provided for free circulation for ECAC homebuilt aircraft "without any restrictions other than those stated in the .... permit to fly", was previously implemented by the UK. However, the UK has introduced restrictions incompatible with ECAC, only allowing entry subject to advance provision of documentation and only allowing a cumulative 28 days of exemption per annum irrespective of the actual numbers of days spent in the UK. This amounts to a requirement for prior permission in all but name. There is a particular problem for aircraft registered in the Republic of Ireland which are denied routine access to Northern Ireland and flights through UK airspace onward to continental Europe; in the latter case such an Irish aircraft has to obtain "exemption days" for any period when it plans overflight through UK airspace even thought it may not in fact be visiting the UK at all. Also, access to Donegal from the rest of Ireland normally would involve routing through the Scottish FIR. An increasing number of factory built aircraft are coming on to permits-to-fly (or equivalent); these are not covered by AN53 so individual exemptions have to applied for on each occasion of intended flight in or via the UK, and a comparatively significant fee paid to the CAA for each application. It is said that the AN is written in the way it is as a defence against aircraft on foreign permits being imported into the UK and falling outside national regulation "for prolonged periods". We are not convinced of the need for this as if an aircraft is notified to the CAA as being in the UK for long periods, it is straightforward to call the owner to account. If the owner chooses not to notify the CAA, it would be none the wiser in either circumstance. A cumulative annual exemption limit for all light permit aircraft of 28 days, irrespective of the actual period spent in the UK, is much shorter than is required to guard against "prolonged" visits or "imports". The UK appears to have the most restrictive entry regulations of any EC country and we propose that AN53 be amended to allow free circulation of homebuilt aircraft for a reasonable annual period in conformity with ECAC and that its scope be broadened to include factory built light permit aircraft.
here is the text of part of an email I sent to the CAA on 17 August. We are working with our Irish colleagues who are also pressing. We expect to discuss the way ahead on this soon and I will report in the magazine. The email also dealt with relief from certain aspects of IFR and the retention of IFR and night privileges for orphan aircraft recently transferred to permits. Hope this helps
John Brady
extract:
4. Foreign Permit-to-fly aircraft entering the UK and Airworthiness Notice 53.
AN53 provides for the treatment of foreign homebuilt aircraft visiting the UK. The ECAC recommendation of June 1980, which provided for free circulation for ECAC homebuilt aircraft "without any restrictions other than those stated in the .... permit to fly", was previously implemented by the UK. However, the UK has introduced restrictions incompatible with ECAC, only allowing entry subject to advance provision of documentation and only allowing a cumulative 28 days of exemption per annum irrespective of the actual numbers of days spent in the UK. This amounts to a requirement for prior permission in all but name. There is a particular problem for aircraft registered in the Republic of Ireland which are denied routine access to Northern Ireland and flights through UK airspace onward to continental Europe; in the latter case such an Irish aircraft has to obtain "exemption days" for any period when it plans overflight through UK airspace even thought it may not in fact be visiting the UK at all. Also, access to Donegal from the rest of Ireland normally would involve routing through the Scottish FIR. An increasing number of factory built aircraft are coming on to permits-to-fly (or equivalent); these are not covered by AN53 so individual exemptions have to applied for on each occasion of intended flight in or via the UK, and a comparatively significant fee paid to the CAA for each application. It is said that the AN is written in the way it is as a defence against aircraft on foreign permits being imported into the UK and falling outside national regulation "for prolonged periods". We are not convinced of the need for this as if an aircraft is notified to the CAA as being in the UK for long periods, it is straightforward to call the owner to account. If the owner chooses not to notify the CAA, it would be none the wiser in either circumstance. A cumulative annual exemption limit for all light permit aircraft of 28 days, irrespective of the actual period spent in the UK, is much shorter than is required to guard against "prolonged" visits or "imports". The UK appears to have the most restrictive entry regulations of any EC country and we propose that AN53 be amended to allow free circulation of homebuilt aircraft for a reasonable annual period in conformity with ECAC and that its scope be broadened to include factory built light permit aircraft.
-
Peter Harvey
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:50 pm
- Location: Mk-Northampton
- Contact:
Foreign Permit aircraft visiting the UK
Nigel and all
At LAA we are very aware (disappointed) at CAA's apparent charging of non UK homebuilts / microlights.
We will be meeting them next week and have this item (amongst several other) on the agenda.
We'll report back.
Pete
CEO LAA.
At LAA we are very aware (disappointed) at CAA's apparent charging of non UK homebuilts / microlights.
We will be meeting them next week and have this item (amongst several other) on the agenda.
We'll report back.
Pete
CEO LAA.
-
Steve Brown
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Big risk here is that we may get to an unedifying tit for tat position and we then get similarly limited by other countries from the current freedom enjoyed with France Holland Czech Rep, Germany etc etc.
I don't plan to overfly Belgium at all due to their request &charge stance but if too many other countries join in we are in trouble.
Our decision to not join the Schengen Agreement compounds the risk.
Quite why EU citizens can bring their foreign cars over to UK for virtually unlimited time (& seemingly be effectively exempt from parking fees & speed camera fines) yet can't do so in an aircraft I really don't know.
Afterall, aircraft are very easy to track down - cars aren't & hence the latter easily get 'lost' in the system.
What about the freedom to travel in the human rights act?
While we are at it - isnt the Prevention of Terrorism Act restrictions wrt Ireland & Isle of Man & Channel Islands a bit old hat now? Time has moved on - yet politicions never seem to give back freedoms to citizens when the restrictions are no longer needed.
I don't plan to overfly Belgium at all due to their request &charge stance but if too many other countries join in we are in trouble.
Our decision to not join the Schengen Agreement compounds the risk.
Quite why EU citizens can bring their foreign cars over to UK for virtually unlimited time (& seemingly be effectively exempt from parking fees & speed camera fines) yet can't do so in an aircraft I really don't know.
Afterall, aircraft are very easy to track down - cars aren't & hence the latter easily get 'lost' in the system.
What about the freedom to travel in the human rights act?
While we are at it - isnt the Prevention of Terrorism Act restrictions wrt Ireland & Isle of Man & Channel Islands a bit old hat now? Time has moved on - yet politicions never seem to give back freedoms to citizens when the restrictions are no longer needed.
-
Peter Gorman
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:11 pm
Nigel and others - just to clarify: Non-homebuilt permit aircraft have to pay a fee of £51 per Exemption Order; the CAA is not currently charging for foreign homebuilt permit aircraft. Both types of permit aircraft are limited to 28 days cumulative period of Exemption Orders per year.
An Exemption Order can be for any period(s) up to 28 days. In effect you have to get advance quasi-permission from the CAA before entering UK airspace, and the Exemption Order must be carried on board.
These UK restrictions appear to be the worst in Europe, outside maybe Russia. Belgium, all is forgiven!
Peter
An Exemption Order can be for any period(s) up to 28 days. In effect you have to get advance quasi-permission from the CAA before entering UK airspace, and the Exemption Order must be carried on board.
These UK restrictions appear to be the worst in Europe, outside maybe Russia. Belgium, all is forgiven!
Peter