Rotax 582 Starter Flattens Battery

batninth · Post by **batninth** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:44 pm

Have a RANS S6 with Rotax 582 Grey Top.

Had a problem at beginning of year where I could start the engine first time, but if it cut then subsequently the battery wasn't able to turn the engine fast enough to start it. The battery appeared to be so discharged that even jumping the battery from the car couldn't get the starter spinning fast enough.

Popped in a new 12V 22Ah battery and all ok for first few flights but now it's back to where it was - 1 start and that's it if you don't catch the engine.

Anyone else experienced this at all, and if so were you able to resolve it? One thought is if a 22Ah bettery is sufficient?

Thanks

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:34 pm

The starter motor on our "blue top" gave similar problems some time ago. The starter (if mounted on the gearbox) is very easy to remove. We found that some oil from the gearbox had entered the motor through the lip seal. In addition, the carbon brushes were worn down and the commutator needed a clean up and the mica "slots" cleared out. You can obtain a brushgear / seal set from "Skydrive".
Before splitting the motor, match mark the end covers in order to get things lined up correctly on re assembly. You will need three hands as getting the brushes mounted correctly is a bit of a chinese puzzle - just fiddly more than anything. It cured our starter problem and it really threw the engine round.

Gary Carr · Post by **Gary Carr** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:41 am

Hi,
I agree with bill on this a few things to check !! would be sounds silly but take a look at the spark plugs and see if there are any deposits on them !Check to see if they are long or short reach when they was last replaced could have replaced the wrong size plugs! check the earth on the starter a bad earth would cause the problem and god forbid back pressue would also cause this as well !! hope you find the problem and hope this helps!

regards G.

batninth · Post by **batninth** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:13 pm

Thanks to you both,

It's actually a "new" engine, insofar as it's been running for about 30 hours. It was put in after the prop disintegrated on the previous owner as he was climbing out of Carlisle. After that he found someone with an unused grey top for sale so put that in as a replacement.

I replaced the spark plugs yesterday as a matter of routine, but will check the rest now.

Regards

Russell

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:05 pm

My money would be on the engine/starter earth.

Often you will find that the earth wire termination at the engine end looks ok, but has oxidisation between the terminal and where it's fastened. Clean all mating surfaces with a file/sandpaper.

As the earth bond decreases the current required to turn the starter increases greatly. Have you noticed a 'hot' smell when cranking?

Frank Parker · Post by **Frank Parker** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:51 pm

Nigel's suggestion sounds a likely possibility. However, if the batter really is going flat, a high resistance connection would not explain that. Have you checked that the battery is receiving an adequate charge? It should float around 13.8 to 14 volts on charge if all is well - assuming that it is a 12 volt system of course!

Frank Parker

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:54 am

Possibly a red herring, but I had similar indications a couple of weeks back when I put a recharged 12v Lead Acid battery onto my Ferguson petrol tractor.

The clamps were tight and all other connections 'good' but the starter gave one 'go' then the battery appeared to have lost all power. I tried all the conections in the power circuit without luck. The ignition light went from red to very dull too. I thought the battery was really on its last legs.

Answer: the battery posts were clean O.K. BUT were the problem. Cleaning off the surface and reclamping the leads to it suddenly made it full of whoompf again.

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:07 pm

Mike - is that a pertrol / paraffin Fergie. I thought they had two batteries located on either side of the seat. My Fergie 35X just has the one (positive earth). The earth terminal is always the one that gives bother - you can hear the spit of the spark when things aren't right.

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:40 pm

It's a 1948 model with the low compression Standard vanguard 2 litre block. It has an early TOO/petrol conversion with the top tank divided into approx 5 litres and a whole lot more in the main tank.
As you'll know it's intended for petrol to start off and when hot switch over to TVO, which actually has more volatiles & lubricity than paraffin which isn't the same thing. I did get a formula in 1993 for re-creating TVO from one of the oil co's, using 28 second heating oil (kerosine) with 10 t0 15% petrol added. However though cheaper I decided it was false economy as many years ago I found the sump oil level rising, because it was getting diluted by some of the droplets of unburnt fuel getting scraped into the sump. The heat muff round the carb to let it vapourise wasn't very effective.
I only cut, roll & harrow the strip itself and prefer to have a long lasting engine with undiluted lub. So she has been used on mogas - just like the 'plane !

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:05 pm

My new strip is coming along nicely and the grass will need its first cut very soon. I must hunt around for an ex golf course ganged cylinder mower outfit as I don't relish cutting it with the Honda 40" cut lawb tractor!

batninth - keep us informed on the starter / battery problem.

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:51 pm

A 6ft topper using the pto is what I have used for 15 years, & recommend.

batninth · Post by **batninth** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:59 am

Thanks for the replies, will look to get up there tomorrow & give these suggestions a try so will hopefully update after that.

Can also talk to Brian, the owner of the strip where we fly from, about his tractors now

We did try jump starting from a couple of the farm machines, I'll have to pay more notice in future.

Regards

batninth · Post by **batninth** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:33 am

Finally got some time yesterday to go & try some of your suggestions.

Having left the battery charging (and checking the indicator was showing it as fully charged), I metered the battery out & got 12.9V when not connected to he charger (sorry Frank, only just saw that you mentioned the on-charge voltage). I thought a charged battery should be much higher?

Initially it still wouldn't turn, same problem as before, but I cleaned off the connectors & then found that it would crank away fine (also had a problem with the primer so hadn't primed, hence a lot of cranking to start it!).

Once I'd got everything sorted, started the engine & ran a few taxi runs before going off for some fun.

In all I did three cycles of running, then engine off for a while & restart, but I did notice after starting that the positive connector to the battery is hot making me wonder if the crimp is getting corroded inside. That might explain why we get the same problem when we try to jump-start as the jumpers go onto the battery connector, I'll get some longer leads for the multi-meter & do a resistance check.

I also traced the wires all the way through to the starter (as Nigel suggested) and the other connections look ok, especially the earth, I'll pop it off & check it when we do a service shortly.

Thanks again for your suggestions

Andrew Whittaker · Post by **Andrew Whittaker** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:58 am

Hello there! I think you may need some advice in basic electrical testing. You have a volt meter (good) have you heard of a volt drop test? Place the meter accross the positive circuit, battery post to starter positive and try to start engine and take a reading. Do the same accross the earth circuit, battery earth post to starter earth post. If the connections are good there will be no reading, if the readings are more than 1 volt then move the voltmeter connector from the starter back down the circuit to the next junction. This test will save you lots of time and works for any circuit where you believe there is a volt drop. Hope this helps... Andrew Whittaker FIMI.

batninth · Post by **batninth** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:41 am

All,

Thanks for all your help last year with this, it's taken a while due to various work commitments taking up most of my free hours.

I finally took the plunge & replaced the starter motor with a nearly new item. First try with the new unit in, a supposedly "flat battery" turned the new starter & it fired straight away so I'm optimistic I've got to the bottom of it.

It was only a chance comment by a visitor to the effect of while it was a new engine that had been put in, he remembered that they had used the old starter in it. I took the starter out & to a local garage to see if they could get their electics man to refurb it (I wasn't confident on replacing the brushes myself in a hurry). Automan couldn't get the spares, but then a local flyer came up with a nearly new item so it all came together.

Anyway, we'll see how it goes but it's good to have confidence in it again. Thanks again all

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