connecting LAA and BMAA together.

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:06 pm

Those of you that think BMAA and LAA can join together need to read this thread. The gulf between us is massive and building bridges between us is neigh on impossible.

http://www.bmaa.org/forums/default.aspx ... =3&m=30459

Mike Mold · Post by **Mike Mold** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:43 pm

Kelvin, I read this as an issue between some weight-shift microlighters and Elstree, not BMAA v LAA. There are plenty of airfields in the UK where members of both organisations co-exist in aeronautical harmony and clubs whose members fly a/c of different weight categories (the distinction soon to be lost according to EASA regulation).

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:04 pm

Quite agree Mike. Trouble is there is a minority who see these situations as an opportunity to take a pop at LAA or light aircraft flyers in general. Absolutely nothing to do with LAA, and there are plenty of us who are happy to mix with anybody who flies, regardless of what type of aircraft they have. Quite why those people choose to be so small minded I do not know.
Kelvin is an LAA guy and is trying to get Elstree to accept microlights, just as Turweston is trying a softly softly approach to get all types of microlights accepted by the local council. If people are too dumb or bloody minded to understand that, then nothing those of a more reasonable attitude say will change their minds. Be interesting to know what they are doing to improve relationships with airfields - nix no doubt. Good luck with the fly-in Kelvin, if I can make it in my demon non flexwing Jodel then I will do so. Have given it a plug in the mag.

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:57 pm

Sadly it is much deeper than just a Elstree vs Microlights. I have done all I can to make microlights feel as welcome as possible. I don't own the airfield but several meetings later I managed to get microlights in where they "normally" cannot go. Nobody from the microlighting community came to show themselves at the table that I recall, this year or last.

Yes, some mixed communities do exist but not at Elstree and now perhaps not ever. I am not a microlight pilot but I do my best to welcome them as part of aviation. We are all flying to release our minds from the tyrynny of petty things why resume it in the forums? Who are these people who hate GA and LAA and why?

How can I see it as a Elstree vs microlight thing. We are doing what we can to make them welcome, to the best of my knowledge Elstree has done nothing to create such dislike of Microlights vs Elstree, well what could they have done. I find Elstree folk quite welcomming as I have done since I first arrived, I also found the microlight folk welcomming as I did the glider folk...take a look in the mirror before you next visit a airfield just incase it is you that is the problem.

Eternal CAVOK,

Kelvin Denize

Alan Kilbride · Post by **Alan Kilbride** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:02 pm

I may sound a bit thick, but heres my question(s). Why not Flexwing at the Fly-in? I think a couple of Microlighters might feel unwelcome at Elstree if they can't fly there.
Why does this cause friction between BMAA and LAA? Is it a Strut rule or an Elstree rule?
I have absolutely no issue with Microlighters and have been made more than welcome at their fly ins has they have at (proper plane) fly ins.
No gulf in the real world of aviation, but maybe in the surreal world of "look how how much better we are than them" from both sides I would hazard a guess

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Lets make it really clear before I go on, I am not a spokes person for Elstree. I don't operate the airfield and apart from running the strut there and flying from there I am compltely independent from them. But, here is my view of the events and it is only my view only NOT the view of the airfield in any way.

Elstree has no circuit, only a long 4 mile final into the runway. They felt there would be a speed issue on final and a safety issue.

Despite invites nobody from any microlight club wanted to attend the initial meetings to set this up, neither last year nor this year. I only fly a PA28, I could not argue their case as I don't have the knowledge. I did my best and we have fixed wing microlights in as a result. If they want flex wing then they will need to come and argue it.

Microlights have been into Elstree on some occasions, flex wing included but we could not work out how to mix them into this final so the rules were made with them not present by people who don't fly them.

I have not seen and guess will never see "we are better then them from Elstree". Lots of folk there fly microlights too. The issue seems very much on their side. Some of the posts are very anti GA/LAA but I have never seen similer on "our" side.

I have never seen people wearing gold braid at Elstree, holding fingers under noses e.t.c. I am also not sure what to make of specifically arranging a BBQ to clash with the Elstree one except to be nasty.

Sarcastic comments like "lets invite these spam cans in to our field and see how that goes" just is silly. The Elstree flyinn was to try and get all our sections of aviation together not divide them apart as seems to be the case now.

CP · Post by CP » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:59 pm

Grow up!!....Join forces!!......Or Die!!

Paul Whittingham

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:08 pm

I wholeheartedly agree........more than you believe.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:41 pm

CP, have you read any of the posts? LAA DOES NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MICROLIGHTS, FIXED WING OR FLEXWING. This issue is a safety concern by the management at Elstree OVER WHICH LAA HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL. The local strut tried to get flexwing pilots to attend a meeting at Elstree and negotiate a means of flying in which allayed the management's concerns, THEY DID NOT ATTEND.
Exactly who needs to 'grow up' here. I'd suggest it is the minority who can't be bothered to help themselves but want to blame everybody else for their problems.
Personally I believe both associations can continue quite satisfactorily as independant entities, after all they have done so for 25 years. I don't see that either is in its death throes.

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:18 pm

20% of our fleet are micros, there is no them and us.

Rod1

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:54 am

Well, regardless of the feelings of the flexwing community the flyinn is still on and next year they are welcome to come and argue their case instead of frothing from the sidelines.

Same as they were this year and the previous.

I do begin to wonder if the ban on them stems more from the inability of various airfields to deal with the shoulder chip than the machine?

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:57 pm

To reinforce Mike's point, Bristol Wing have a close relationship with Bristol Microlight Aircraft Club. We hold joint events, go on trips together and sit together in meetings. I have not seen any chips on any shoulders. IMHO animosity that may from time to time surface both here and on other forums is simply thoughtless regurgitation of old mantras that should have been consigned to history by now.

Elstree with it's long final probably has a valid safety case for it's stance on Flexwings but perhaps they could specify a minimum approach speed instead. That would be seen as sensible and not discriminatory.

I think microlight pilots have a right to feel a bit put upon. The blanket bans by some fields of "microlights" (and I exclude Elstree) are anachronistic. Modern flexwings are quieter now and most three axis microlights are only distinguishable from the rest of us by their hush. Their owners need help from all pilots to change airfield attitudes. Airfield owners need to be assisted to make educated decisions and update their policies. Then everybody wins

Steve

David Broom · Post by **David Broom** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:31 pm

The following is not meant to be confrontational, just an expression of my view.
I am a member of the Hertfordshire strut. Not one of the selfless few who have given their time to resurrect a defunct strut and organise bi-monthly meetings for the education and interest of the rest of us but just a LAA member pleased to be associated with a local strut once more. I also attended last years Elstree fly-in and found it friendly an enjoyable. I was not involved in the organisation but I was aware of the effort and enthusiasm that Kelvin Denize put into the event and the lengths he went to in his negotiation with Elstree management to make the event available to as wide a spectrum of flyers as possible within the confines of what they would allow. I don't think Kelvin should beat himself up over wider issues that have little to do with his heartfelt wish to help lay on an event that is meant to be sociable and enjoyable. Bear in mind that prior to playing his significant part in re-forming the Hertforshire strut, Kelvin had very little involvement or experience of the LAA and I believe that at that time he had never even had the opportunity to attend a fly-in.
I guess some people have a strong 'us an them' attitude but it is not something I subscribe to. A couple of weeks ago, poor weather at our destination in France led to my wife and me overnighting at Sandown on the first day of the BMAA spamfield event in my RV6. Everyone we met ( all microlight flyers ) were friendly and helpful, We had a good time and I will surely be pleased to go to future events.
We all share the immense pleasure of the freedom of flight and just because there are 'political problems' at some airfields that is not grounds for criticism of folks that are doing their best to provide things for us to do.

J.C. · Post by **J.C.** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:06 am

I regularly fly from a microlight strip in my RV. My son has his Nipper based there. The micro boys have a tremendous sense of adventure and display a level of enthusiasm that would put many spam can fliers to shame.
They have attended every event that I have organised this year.
I have carried out permit renewal inspections for some of them and I am overseeing various other permit jobs for them,but only on three axis because that is all I am qualified to do. However, the flex wing boys know and accept this fact and support my (our) fly-ins and everyone benefits.

THERE IS NO THEM AND US...except in the minds of a minority of mischief makers

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:02 pm

When I had to attend an airport consultative committee meeting (which was attended by our local MSP, local councillors, airport management ATCOs and users) to put my case for a fly-in, one prominent GA "spokesman" stated that the then PFA members would be like "load of hells angels" descending on the place - God knows where he got that impression from. Now, it takes a fair bit for me to loose my cool so I let rip in support of our people thinking that the whole idea would be squashed there and then anyway. He yielded and retracted his comments and was in the end very pleasantly surprised by the conduct of our visitors. Above all, the ATCOs were extremely impressed with the level of airmanship displayed for the event - and this airfield has certainly not had five aircraft of "final" before or since.
I agree with JC in that "microlighters" have a great deal of "get-up-and-go" about them.