Airside access at Sywell fly-in

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:40 pm

Now I'm getting a bit confused here.

You aren't the only one Peter!

As I understood it, when the EC backed the Sywell LAA Rally, there was an element of support of around £xxx for marketing.

There was a notional seed fund, to be covererd by advance booking sales, that's true.

The Sywell team were responsible for making it happen.

Do you mean the 'Rally Team' or Mike Bletsoe-Brown and the Sywell staff??

When later the EC pulled the plug and it became a Sywell Revival, it also became a de facto Regional Rally.

No mention was made of a Regional Rally or that this would be a replacement, at least not within the Rally Committee's earshot.

I understand that certain funding from HQ might still be there but at a reduced level.

No, Peter Harvey has stated that there must be NO FINANCIAL implication for Association funds. In fact we have managed to sell some indoor and outdoor pitches, the income from these is intended for seed funding for a 2010 event (remember the EC told us we could only have a rally if at no point did the Association have to be financially exposed, hence the strategy of advanced sales!)

So, I ask. What support and backing against loss did those of us running the Regional events get from HQ in these difficult times.

A fair question, not one I have an answer for or any remit to answer!

Answer on a postage stamp please.......

Big stamp but hopefully some answers?

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:22 pm

I don't have those answers. It's a bit 'Off Topic' really, valid though and worthy of a new thread?

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:03 am

Peter, I am somewhat bemused by Devon's feeling that they were 'let down' in a major way by LAA HQ over the SW Regional event. The realities of the current economic climate are clear - LAA, just like any trading company, needs to very carefully assess the benefits of spending, in our case members' money. Had staff members attended the event it would have cost time off in lieu, hotel accommodation, van hire and travelling. As it was, I flew down with friends, Mike Barnard collected the LAA stuff in his car and drove down and we stayed with a mate of mine. Total cost to LAA - Mike's petrol. Barry Plumb, head of the LAA Engineering Committee, was on hand on Saturday to answer engineering queries, and you had two EC members on hand throughout the entire weekend. I really cannot see how HQ let you down, we simply did it on the cheap! My guess is that LAA saved in excess of £1000, and members received just as useful a service.
There has also been some disquiet about the level of advertising the event received in Light Aviation. I do not have a copy to hane, I passed mine on to somebody who was interested in LAA, but the event did receive a sizeable NEWS item, with a picture. The complaint that the Sywell event had greater coverage is rather silly - it will be a much larger event, as indeed Aero Expo was.
There isn't a bottomless pit of money I'm afraid, and decsions have to be made about where money spent on promotoing LAA, and serving the members, is best targeted. I actually believe we had it about right with SW Regional and EXPO, and am pushing to ensure we do not over tighten the purse strings on Sywell.
Notwithstanding any of the above, the SW event was a credit to the Devon Strut and, as I always do when I come down that neck of the woods, I had a thoroughly enjoyable weekend.

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:02 pm

Ron, I don't see that I set any rules! Dissent on the other hand is dissent in any language. What I in fact alluded to was constant carping by certain individuals which does no good. I stick by what I said, if you want to make a difference DO SOMETHING don't just whinge about it. If you had actually given up some of your valuable time to get a Rally going again I assure you, you would be as pissed off as me!

We can't change what is happening at Sywell despite our best efforts. It's still going to be a good event and something we hope the majority will support and people throwing their teddies and saying they aren't coming doesn't help. If you don't want to come, that's your choice of course.

Nigel Hitchman · Post by **Nigel Hitchman** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:53 pm

I have to agree with most of what Ron "Welshman" said in his original post. I cant say I agree with a lot of what he says, but here I think he got a lot of it spot on.

When there was first the idea of having a Rally at Sywell I went to a meeting there together with a Graham Newby and Mike Ahern, we met Mr Bletsoe Brown, Sywell's MD. This was way back in Feb 2008 (I think). The FIRST point on the agenda was full airside access for LAA members. Mr Bletsoe Brown agreed with this, basically telling us that it was MKAS (who volunteer as marshallers at some sywell events) who had prevented airside access for members at the regional rally the previous year. So there we had it Full airside access for ALL LAA members.
I dont know where this was lost, I havent been involved lately, but I think it was still there when the Rally team were running the rally as opposed to it being a Sywell event.
I wonder why if MKAS dont want people airside, why doesnt the event continue without them, using the excellent already existing PFA rally team who would have been doing the event anyway if it hadnt been cancelled as an LAA rally.

However, has it all been lost? The email quoted by Nigel Ramsey says pilots and their passengers flying in will get wristbands allowing them full access and general public will need to be escorted. It doesnt say anything about other LAA members, who, at an LAA event, whether run by the LAA, or by someone else on behalf of the LAA, shouldnt be considered as "general public" I would reserve that catagory for locals who just happen to turn up.

What about my friends that Ive invited to stay and I will be taking flying at the event, will I be able to get a wristband for each of them at the start of the event? They are all PFA rally veterans, so will be at home airside, no H+S risk there, infact as they are much more experienced than probably many of the passengers who will arrive and probably more experienced being airside at a large event than many of the MKAS marshallers and escorts, having them airside will be a definite H+S benefit!

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:35 pm

Peter Gristwood wrote: This is the third year of Regional events and the majority have been weather-affected - some washed-out completely. Struts just can't continue to take losses or miniscule profit or to encourage members to get involved with that level of 'failure'.

Perhaps the EC/NC could discuss this and come up with a way that the risks are shared in a fair way.

No problem re NC. This will be added as an agenda item to the August 1st meeting.

Steve

menestrel · Post by **menestrel** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:41 pm

hi to you all, i can see where everyone is coming from with regards to airside passes and i must say i was really looking forward to going. it would be great if sywell could give all us laa members the benifit of knowing how to behave safely and politely around other peoples aircraft. i for one have worked at big airports in the past, but they wont know that when i turn up by car, but being an laa member and aircraft owner ( i cant fly in due to not having finished building yet, small problem i know) should let them see we are responsible adults and want to meet owners and look over the aircraft. as has allready been mentioned its a bit difficult doing this if we are marched around in groups alongside others who quite often dont know one end of a plane from the other. but this aside it wont stop me going, it will just make me feel isolated and a tourist. so come on sywell meet us halfway eh. blueskies. menestrel

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:06 am

Nigel,
I have every sympathy with most of the views regarding airside access/LAA Members and their ability to conduct themselves airside. As far as obtaining airside wristbands 'at the beginning of the event' I seriously doubt that will be possible. This is all very subjective argument and not without merit, BUT the bottom line(s) are this:
1. It's a Sywell run event and NOTHING TO DO WITH US AS FAR AS OPERATIONS ARE CONCERNED.
2. The thorny business of airside access was put to bed, finally, by our own CEO who stated quite categorically that he would not have the LAA linked in any way to the airside operations at Sywell in September. This is so that in the unlikely event of a tragedy, the ambulance chasing lawyers won't be able to point in our direction.

I had been in discussions with MKAS with some hope that we could indeed have made this happen but it was that directive which ended the discussions.
The arguments put forward regarding LAA member's suitability to be allowed to play in the sandpit un-escorted are very subjective. We currently have no vetting procedure when someone joins the LAA and so any competency is purely subjective (and must vary enormously) and not a supportable claim in law.

What we need, is a simple, say half-day course for LAA members, appraising them of airside risks and resulting in a 'competency' badge of some kind (This could even be a web based q&a 'course' I guess. Believe me I hate all this crap as much as anyone but sadly, it's here to stay!

So, I've given you the bottom line here, it really isn't going to change. There is no point in organising a bunch of experienced airside volunteers because , firstly, the LAA won't have their members there under their membership status at least. Secondly Andre of the MKAS has also stated that he won't deviate from the escorted method for this event.

Sorry guys, there it is.

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:39 am

Nigel Ramsay

So you are saying that it was our very own CEO – Peter H who stopped airside access!!!!

With regard to a course, how about an alternative. If you turn up with an LAA membership card and a PPL, you can go airside and take responsibility for up to 3 other LAA non PPL’s. Should satisfy the H & S requirements.

Rod1

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:34 pm

I don't think I can state the facts any more plainly than I already have Rod! This was the decision, I've told you what happened and why, I can't really elaborate anymore.

I've already said that airside access is what it is, there will be no change to that as far as the LAA is concerned. My suggestion for a course is for future events. I believe it would be the only way to provide real evidence that an LAA member was actually 'Plane Savvy' (Name for the course perhaps?). Waving a PPL about isn't going to make any difference at Sywell.

Interestingly, I've not been asked to show my PPL in twenty years in the UK, but when I flew in Spain I had to produce it (along with passport, insurance permit etc) three times in a single walk from the a/c to the terminal building at Almeria!

Will Greenwood · Post by **Will Greenwood** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:57 pm

Finger pointing and chinese whispers are not going to make the situation any better gentleman, however the risk assesments and H&S brigade are a fact of modern life. Personally I thought the idea of an LAA course for "Airside Approval" badge for next years event for genuine enthusiasts, a great idea. If you fly in to an event with pax, then you must brief them on airside, if you are a non flying member, who used to to the airside marshalling etc, these are the guys who could run the courses etc and at least if we have to restrict members only to airside, we will be covered. There could be a general public area, with satic displays etc, but if we are going to have a back to basis event, keep it simple.
I'm no expert on public liability, but there are too many people out there who will claim against an injury and lawyers who will go for the biggest cash cow, regardless of whose fault it is.......unfortunately it's called modern lfe...in America, soon to be found at an event in the UK !!

Will Greenwood.